Fair or foul?

[Buchajs1]

Originally Posted by smarkquart

For the sake of fun rounds where you do not want to lose a disc, I would agree.

However, I have been in two scenarios where that should not be the case.

First, should someone who is rated just as high but has gained that rating because of accuracy and not distance be automatically forced to bail out and possibly be already a stroke behind? Or should that player who is rated just as high play in a lower division so he or she can play from the shorter tee? In one case he or she is at a disadvantage, in the other case he or she has a huge advantage.

Second, and more often my predicament, what if I can drive with the higher ranked players but because of my putting I do better overall in a lower division? I know it sounds slightly demeaning, but I personally do not like being "babied" with the short tees because my putting keeps me around a 915 rating. Risk versus reward should come from my shot selection and execution, but not from deciding which tee to use.

Then again while I am writing this, and again not to sound demeaning, I realized I am using Minnesotan logic in hole design where for better or worse most Minnesotans prefer to play from the long tees regardless of the circumstances.

You make a valid point. I do not think anybody should be scared to play in a division or the opposite, being babied because they can't putt.

[smarkquart]

Originally Posted by Sadjo

I think someone throwing from the long tee can still throw the 280' shot to the area the short tee is located and still have a chance to putt for a birdie 4 with a well executed 2nd and 3rd shot.

So while the long over the water might seem it gives an advantage, I think playing that risk...not just being long but having to avoid the trees that guard a portion of the far shore, make the hole exciting.

Thanks for the feedback.

I am glad you are at least reading the thread and the feedback because truly without being there, our discussion is purely academic. I realize fully that you need to be there to feel the flow of the land to really determine what would make a great shot.

I guess the only point I really want to make here is that conscious risk versus reward is far more satisfying that a forced risk versus reward. I just never liked the idea of bailing out is a viable golfing option.

[DavidSauls]

Originally Posted by smarkquart

If you are looking for a hole that can generate a scoring spread based upon fairness, find some way where an accurate player can reach the basket in the same throws as a strong-arm player. Bailing out just seems anti-competitive, almost punitive, producing the wrong type of scoring spread. Players should be punished score-wise when they cannot make the shot they are normally capable of.

I rather think that distance is a skill that can be rewarded sometimes, too.

I love the tee end of this hole. I'm not sure about the basket end, but I'd have to see it in person to judge. I wouldn't worry about players saying it's too tough to get a birdie.

I expect only players who can clear the water will be playing the blue tee. The concerns I might have are:

---the bailout looks pretty tough for a lefty or RHFH thrower.
---in the photos, the trees on the far side of the water look like they could knock down an otherwise-water-carrying shot.
---Is there a drop zone? The penalty for not carrying the water might be disproportionate---lost disc, effectively re-throwing from the tee and facing a 7, 8, or higher.

Regardless---I love this proposed hole.

[smarkquart]

Whatever you do, do not do this:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_i...635&p=146a0ec7

EDIT: I cannot get the specific picture to url. Please look at the picture for Hole 8 tee.

The long tee is up against the "lake" and you have to force yourself into the woods to get back onto the fairway. I play it because it is there, but more often than not almost everyone skips this tee, and this is including what I said earlier about most Minnesotans always playing long tees.

Do not get any of us wrong; water hazards when available should always be used. I would just hate for you to design a long tee that almost never gets used. As a designer I would feel let down. It sounds like from those who have walked the property that it may not be as fearful as some of us who can only see pictures can imagine. I will just get back to my original observation; I do not like large water hazards right off the tee (because now you know that no matter what the situation, I will be throwing the longs).

[Dave242]

Cool hole! I like it a ton as is.....but I agree with Stan. Tons of people on the internet throw 450' consistently......not so much in real life.

Not knowing anything other than the pictures and your description, I am wondering if it might even be better to play it the other direction?? If the reward for big D getting closer to the edge of the water for an easier over-the-pond approach, more players will face a myriad more risk-reward choices.

[Stan McDaniel]

I am not stating this as if it were a fact but only as my opinion; the majority of advanced/pro level disc golfers can get 340-360'. It would be cool if they had an opportunity (as one stated earlier) to bite off as much as they could chew. Allow them to try for 310-390' by teeing at a slight angle.

Anyhow, looks like you have some great land and great idea. Rock on.

[Grungedude42]

I admit, I'm one of the few who would have difficulty hitting even the bail-out area from the blues. If I were a local, you'd find a lot of sunken pro wraiths and mambas just off the shore. That being said, don't stop, never stop making tough holes.

[DavidSauls]

If it doesn't work out, looks like there's always the option of moving the blue tee towards the white tee, shortening the water carry.....or even combining them into a blue/white tee.

[Carnavas]

I think the hole seems fair, especially if plenty of the other holes favor more finesse. Even if someone can throw fair, they'll still have to be accurate the rest of the way.

[aPfaff]

This looks like a great hole. Players that don't have the arm to get across do still have a shot at getting a four (fair). Man this really makes me want to play this course. Will the design incorporate the waterfall?