Definition of Wooded (& Hilly) - regional differences

[Dave242]

From this thread (excerpts below), the point was made quite frequently that there are regional differences in the definition and understanding of what is “Wooded” and what is “Hilly”. I think it would be interesting to explore this in more depth…..for fun, maybe to inch towards a more consistent understanding/application, and also as a personal interest of mine - the SSE discussion (DGCR’s Scratch Scoring Estimator – which is mainly concerned with the Wooded selection in the setup).

SSE Threads - SSE, Estimator, Part 2, Part Deux , Optimization

Our choices are:
Lightly Wooded
Moderately Wooded
Heavily Wooded

Mostly Flat
Moderately Hilly
Very Hilly

Originally Posted by mashnut

I think those terms have a bit of a regional bias, just like the ratings. If everything in one area is completely flat, the course with one small hill is going to get labeled hilly. Same thing with the park style course among desert courses.

Originally Posted by bikinjack

I'm with mashnut. I think how wooded or hilly a course is listed as on here is very much relative to what else is in the area. As an example, Renny is listed as very hilly, while Sugaree is listed as only moderately so. I would venture to guess that you'll change elevation more at Sugaree than at Renny. But when you compare Sugaree to Ashe County,Bear Tree, or Plumtree, it's not nearly as much up and down. While Renny is much more than the Nest, or Kilborne.

Originally Posted by BionicRib

I agree with Mash about the regional differences when it comes to what is lightly/heavily wooded or very hilly/ moderately hilly. I would also add that region plays a huge roll into what a course is rated. Unfortunately I just don't think there is enough data out there to come up with "factual info". I personally prefer a "challenging" course. Typically that means moderately wooded or heavy and moderately hilly to very hilly.

Originally Posted by Shuie

I it is interesting tho to see how the terms Lightly, moderate and heavily wooded get used as you travel from region to region.

Originally Posted by humchris85

I was thinking about this. What people consider heavly wooded varies quite a bit depending on where you are, as well as peoples opinions of what constitutes very hilly.

Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore

To Mashnut's point (lifted from a different thread about Selah Ranch):

StuMagoo and Martin see things a bit differently. The difference is that Stu's played 53 courses: a decent amount, (and certainly more than quite a few folks), but all in Texas. That's his "DG frame of reference." I wouldn't doubt Selahs courses are moderatlely hilly, for Texas.

But having played tons of courses in essentially every (and not just a couple in each state, but many courses in pretty much each state) Martin probably has very little (if any) "regional" bias. His concept of wooded/open, hilly/flat is based on "DG frame of reference" most of us can't even dream of. Wouldn't surprise me if every course he's played in Texas seems flat.

No offense intended toward StuMagoo (or anyone else for that matter). This just seemed like a perfect example to illustrate how regional bias can affect what we read.

[Dave242]

I spent a bunch of time last night going through my 18+ hole courses play, looking up their DGCR setup and comparing them to my understanding of the terms/definitions. Not that I am the gold standard bearer, but rather that having one person look at it who has played a fair amount of courses (I’m at around 350) will have variations jump out.

In the list below, I have highlighted the items that seem off to me (by labeling them with longer definitions rather than 1-letter abbreviations). I included a column indicating that I think the attribute is either Over-estimated or Under-estimated in the course set up.

I have sorted by State then Wooded as I think that groups courses in the most useful way. I feel like I have these regions pretty well covered in my travels:
FL – west coast
GA/SC – Augusta area
IA/IL – Quad Cities area (Cedar Rapids, Davenport, Iowa City, Moline)
IL – Northern
MA – Eastern
NC
NV – Las Vegas
SC
TN – Eastern
WI – SE

Town	State	Hilly	Wooded	Ovr/Undr	Course
Cullman…	AL	F	M		Heritage
San Francisco	CA	F	H		Golden Gate
Berkely..	CA	F	L		Aquatic 
Santa Cruz	CA	M	M		De Laveaga
Sterling	CO	F	M		Pioneer Park
Manchester	CT	M	L		Wickham 
Sarasota	FL	F	H		Watertower
Live Oak	FL	Modrat	H	Over	Magnolia
Jacksonville	FL	F	L		Four Palms
Sarasota	FL	Modrat	Light	OvrUndr	Lakeview
Clearwater	FL	F	M		Coachman
DaytonaDay	FL	F	M		Tuscawilla
Gainsville	FL	F	M		Northside
N Fort Myers	FL	F	M		North Fort Myers
St Petersbrg	FL	F	M		Tocobaga
OcalaOcala	FL	V Hilly	M	Over	Ocala Greenway
Clearwater	FL	F	Modrat	Over	Cliff Stephens
Appling…	GA	V	H		Steady Ed Headrick Memorial 
Roswell…	GA	V Hilly	H	Over	East Roswell
Snellville	GA	M	L		Lenora
Augusta…	GA	F	M		Lake Olmstead
Elberton	GA	F	M		Lake Russell
RedanRedan	GA	F	M		Redan
Appling…	GA	M	M		WR Jackson Memorial
Whitesburg	GA	M	M		Flyboy Aviation
ToccoaTocc	GA	M	Modrat	Over	Stephens County
CedarRapids	IA	M	H		Shaver Park
Iowa City	IA	M	H		Turkey Creek
Muscatine	IA	M	H		Fuller Park
Dubuque..	IA	V	H		Dubuque Veterans Memorial Park
Urbana….	IA	V	H		Wildcat Bluff
Davenport	IA	F	L		Eastern Avenue Park
CedarRapids	IA	M	L		Jones Park
Iowa City	IA	F	M		Peninsula Park
Waterloo	IA	F	M		Waterloo Exchange Park
Bettendorf	IA	M	M		Middle Park
Clinton…	IA	M	M		Eagle Point Park
North Liberty	IA	M	M		Sugar Bottom Rec. Area
Davenport	IA	V	M		West Lake Park
Soda Springs	ID	Flat	M	Under	Soda Springs @ Arthur Kelley
SummitSumm	IL	F	H		Summit Park
JolietJoliet	IL	M	H		Highland Park
CamdenCam	IL	V	H		Camden II
MokenaMoke	IL	F	Heavy	Over	The Oaks
Shorewood	IL	F	Heavy	Over	Shorewood
Rockford	IL	M	Heavy	Over	Anna Page - West
Antioch…	IL	F	L		Tim Osmond
Bartlett..	IL	F	L		Sunrise Park
Channahon	IL	F	L		Community Park
Lombard..	IL	F	L		Madison Meadow
Olympia Flds	IL	F	L		Sergeant Means
Streamwood	IL	F	L		Shady Oaks
Round Lake	IL	Modrat	L	Over	Fairfield
Waukeegan	IL	F	Light	Under	Bevier
AuroraAuro	IL	F	M		Jericho Lake
Crystal Lake	IL	F	M		Lippold Park
Hoffman Est	IL	F	M		Black Bear Park
Kirkland..	IL	F	M		Pioneer
Lockport..	IL	F	M		Trinity Links
Camden..	IL	M	M		Camden I
JolietJoliet	IL	M	M		West Park
Sterling..	IL	M	M		Sinnissippi
Oswego..	IL	Modrat	M	Over	Eagle Ridge/Civic Center*
Rockford	IL	Modrat	M	Over	Anna Page - East
Moline..	IL	V	M		Prospect
CrownPoint	IN	M	H		Lemon Lake - Silver
Rensselaer	IN	V Hilly	H	Over	Alwoods
Hammond..	IN	F	M		Pulaski
Valparaiso	IN	M	M		Rogers Lakewood
Crown Point	IN	Modrat	M	Over	Lemon Lake - Blue
Crown Point	IN	Modrat	M	Over	Lemon Lake - Red
Hammond..	IN	F	Modrat	Over	Matt Lovasko Memorial
Crown Point	IN	Modrat	Modrat	OvrUndr	Lemon Lake - White
Richmond	KY	Flat	H	Under	Camp Catalpa
Burlington	KY	M	L		Boone
Burlington	KY	M	M		Idlewild
Independnce	KY	M	M		Lincoln Ridge
Louisville	KY	V	M		Charlie Vettiner
EastonEaston	MA	F	H		Borderland
Leicester	MA	M	H		Pyramids
Charlton	MA	M	M		Buffumville Lake
Leicester	MA	M	M		Maple Hill
Worcester	MA	V	M		Newton Hill
DevensDev	MA	Modrat	Modrat	UndrUndr	Devens
Baltimore	MD	M	L		Druid Hills
Elkridge	MD	M	M		Rockburn Ranch
Ellicott City	MD	M	M		Patapsco 
Ludington	MI	Modrat	H	Over	Leviathan
Ludington	MI	V Hilly	H	Over	Mason County Park - Beauty
Ludington	MI	M	M		Mason County Park - Beast
Ludington	MI	M	M		Mason County Park - Goliath
Kalamazoo	MI	F	Modrat	Under	Oshtemo
AustinAust	MN	F	M		Todd Park
Billings	MT	V	Modrat	Over	Diamond X
Davidson	NC	F	H		Davidson
Sanford..	NC	F	H		OT Sloane
Wilmington	NC	F	H		Castle Hayne
Charlotte	NC	M	H		Nevin
Durham..	NC	M	H		Cornwallis
Durham..	NC	M	H		Valley Springs
Gastonia	NC	M	H		Bradley Center
Hickory..	NC	M	H		Glenn Hilton
Raleigh..	NC	M	H		Buckhorn
Raleigh..	NC	M	H		Cedar Hills
Albemarle	NC	Modrat	H	Under	Fox Chase
Charlotte	NC	Modrat	H	Over	Elon - Angry Beaver
Charlotte	NC	Modrat	H	Over	Idlewild Scrapyard
Charlotte	NC	Modrat	H	Over	Winget
Asheville	NC	V	H		Richmond Hill - new
Charlotte	NC	V	H		RL Smith
Davidson	NC	V	H		Brackett's Bluff
Burlington	NC	V Hilly	H	Over	Wellspring
Charlotte	NC	V Hilly	H	Over	Reedy Creek
Greensboro	NC	F	L		Barber
Monroe..	NC	F	L		Dickerson
Burlington	NC	M	L		Cedarock
Charlotte	NC	M	L		Cameron Yards
Raleigh..	NC	M	Light	Under	Kentwood
Statesville	NC	M	Light	Under	Bell & Howard Cheverolet
Zebulon..	NC	Modrat	Light	UndrUndr	Zebulon
Charlotte	NC	F	M		Hornet's Nest - Original
Charlotte	NC	F	M		Sugaw Creek - 18
Concord…	NC	F	M		North Cabarrus
Chapel Hill	NC	M	M		UNC
Charlotte	NC	M	M		Eastway Park
Gastonia	NC	M	M		Rankin Lake Park
High Point	NC	M	M		Johnson Street 
Reidsville	NC	M	M		Lakes Edge
Yadkinville	NC	M	M		Yadkin County Park
Huntersville	NC	Modrat	M	Over	Bradford
Cornelius	NC	Flat	M	Under	Bailey Road - New
Mooresville	NC	V	M		Stumpy Creek
Charlotte	NC	V Hilly	M	Over	Renaissance - Gold
Charlotte	NC	F	Modrat	Under	Kilborne
WinstonSlm	NC	F	Modrat	Over	Horizons
Kearney..	NE	V Hilly	M	Over	Cottonmill
Las Vegas	NV	F	L		Mountain Crest
Las Vegas	NV	F	M		Peccole Ranch
Las Vegas	NV	F	Modrat	Over	Sunset Park
YrktwnHghts	NY	M	M		FDR State Park
Canton..	OH	F	L		Arboretum-Spiker
Cincinnati	OH	V Hilly	M	Over	Mt Airy Forest
Pittsburgh	PA	V Hilly	H	Over	Schenley
Portersville	PA	M	M		Moraine
Chapin..	SC	F	H		Crooked Creek
Greenville	SC	M	H		Timmons
Seneca..	SC	M	H		Shaver Recreation Center
Rock Hill	SC	M	Heavy	Over	Boyd Hill
GovanGovan	SC	F	L		Stillwaters Farm
Rock Hill	SC	M	L		Winthrop Gold
Rock Hill	SC	M	L		Winthrop Lakefront
BoilingSprng	SC	F	M		Va Du Mar
Columbia	SC	F	M		Owens Field
Orangeburg	SC	F	M		Edisto Gardens
GreerGreer	SC	M	M		Century
EasleyEasley	SC	V Hilly	M	Over	Foothills
N Augusta	SC	V Hilly	M	Over	Riverview
Columbia	SC	M	Modrat	Over	Earlewood
Souix Falls	SD	M	M		Tuthill Park
Morristown	TN	M	H		Morristown Kiwanis
Kingsport	TN	F	M		Borden
Knoxville	TN	Modrat	M	Over	Victor Ashe
Kingsport	TN	V	M		Warriors Path
Fall Branch	TN	V Hilly	M	Over	Fossil Hill
Houston..	TX	F	M		Oak Meadow
Houston..	TX	F	Modrat	Over	Agnes Moffitt
Milwaukee	WI	F	H		Brown Deer
Kaukauna	WI	M	H		Grignon
StevensPnt	WI	M	H		Standing Rocks
Kewaunee	WI	V	H		Winter Park
New Berlin	WI	M	Heavy	Over	Valley View Park 
Cleveland	WI	F	L		LTC Cleveland
Milwaukee	WI	F	L		Dineen
WalesWales	WI	F	L		Wales Community Park 
Appleton	WI	M	L		Plamann Apple Creek
Manitowoc	WI	M	L		Indian Creek
SussexSus	WI	M	L		Village Park
Kenosha..	WI	Modrat	L	Over	UW Parkside - Orchid 21
Slinger…	WI	Modrat	L		Heritage Trails
Watertown	WI	M	Light	Under	Rock River
ShelbyShelb	WI	V Hilly	Light	OvrUndr	Flip City
Deforest	WI	F	M		Vallarta-Ast
Kenosha..	WI	F	M		Parkside
Oak Creek	WI	F	M		Abendschein
Pulaski..	WI	F	M		Pulaski Community Park
Appleton	WI	M	M		Telulah
Madison..	WI	M	M		Hiestand
Manitowoc	WI	M	M		Silver Creek
Sheboygan	WI	M	M		Vollrath
Silver Lake	WI	M	M		Fox River - Grey Fox
Janesville	WI	Modrat	M	Over	Lustig
Milwaukee	WI	Modrat	M	Over	Estabrook Park
Saukville	WI	Modrat	M	Over	Tendick Nature Park 
Sheboygan	WI	Modrat	M	Over	Jaycee Quarry
Green Lake	WI	Flat	M	Under	Zobel
Milwaukee	WI	Flat	M	Under	Dretzka
Madison..	WI	V	M		Elver Park
Milwaukee	WI	F	Modrat	Over	Dretzka - Winter
Mukwonago	WI	F	Modrat	Over	Miniwaukan Park 
StevensPnt	WI	F	Modrat	Under	Yulga
Reedsville	WI	Modrat	Modrat	OvrOvr	Lower Cato Falls

[Dave242]

Conclusions to my observations:
All areas have spotty issues (except IA) – mainly with Over-estimating
eIA is perfect and eMA & SC & Augusta do pretty well too – Devens is a big exception
wFL tends to over-estimate how Hilly they are
nIL & seWI have an issue with thinking things are more Wooded & Hilly than they are
Charlotte has an issue with over-estimating how Hilly they are
NC has an issue under-estimating how Wooded they are

Conclusion of the conclusion – most areas have issues…..I do not think it is accurate to pick on one area (except Charlotte and seWI are pretty bad in their consistency). I would love for Martin or Mashnut to do this same sort of analysis.

whew.....

[KniceZ]

Nice work!! It seems the trend is to think the courses are harder (more wooded and hilly) than they are. Is this the result of not having specific criteria or definitions (some of which Dave has suggested in the other thread) or just the tendency to portray local courses as harder to attract other players and make us feel better about bad scores?

[Dave242]

Dang it.....I messed up Flip again. Unless they moved to WI.

Thanks KniceZ. I am not convinced there is widespread intentional boasting or even necessarily regional misunderstandings (Charlotte and WI keep the conspiracy theories alive though). I think it is individuals making quick decisions on setting up courses here......and those in the know being to timid/lazy to fix them. In the grand scheme of things, this is a very minor thing after all.....even in the framework of DGCR course pages (maps, hole info, directions, pictures, reviews, etc are all more important).

That said, I am taking the liberty to fix Devens (I lived in MA for 5 years and I have 2 brothers living within 12 miles of that course).

[New013]

ahh.. i remember bringing this up in those threads and then people blasting me for criticizing certain courses on how they were labeled.

to me the main problem seems to be that in areas where you don't find a lot of trees, then you have a course with what i call park style trees that are there but spaced out and with no underbrush between them, people want to consider that moderately wooded. i remember certain arguments were that there weren't that many overall trees but the trees were used in the hole design in a way that made you go through them so that meant it was moderately wooded.

personally i think there should be two more categories so people can more accurately describe the course. open, lightly wooded, evenly wooded, moderately wooded, heavily wooded.

where open describes courses where 83% (15/18) or more of the holes are mostly open (even if each has a tree or two in your way).

lightly wooded is where you may have spaced out trees with multiple paths on each hole but there is mostly no underbrush on the course and if you get off the fairway you usually still have an open path to go towards the basket. OR even if 66% (12/18) holes would be considered open and the other 6 are of varying degrees of wooded.

evenly wooded would be courses where you would consider close to 50% moderate to heavily wooded and 50% open or lightly wooded. so anything in the 8/18 - 10/18 range where it's a solid mixture you call it evenly wooded.

moderately wooded would be courses where anything in the 66% to 77% of the holes have fairways defined by dense woods and the others can be open or lightly wooded. Or if most of the holes are in the woods but the fairways are the wide mowed down path style.

then heavily wooded would describe almost courses completly in the woods with 83% or more of the holes have fairways defined by thick woods and underbrush.

[Martin Dewgarita]

What we need to do is pay somebody (meaning I'm volunteering for the job) to drive around to every single course and document the terrain (and any other features, take pictures, etc), that way even if you don't agree with me, at least everything is standardized. I'll be the first DGCR employee payed by the community.

[Grungedude42]

Originally Posted by Martin Dewgarita

What we need to do is pay somebody (meaning I'm volunteering for the job) to drive around to every single course and document the terrain (and any other features, take pictures, etc), that way even if you don't agree with me, at least everything is standardized. I'll be the first DGCR employee payed by the community.

Sure, I'll sponsor you with one disc a year to sign and sell.

[mashnut]

I think there's room for at least two such employees, we could cover a lot more ground that way.

[timg]

Originally Posted by New013

ahh.. i remember bringing this up in those threads and then people blasting me for criticizing certain courses on how they were labeled.

to me the main problem seems to be that in areas where you don't find a lot of trees, then you have a course with what i call park style trees that are there but spaced out and with no underbrush between them, people want to consider that moderately wooded. i remember certain arguments were that there weren't that many overall trees but the trees were used in the hole design in a way that made you go through them so that meant it was moderately wooded.

personally i think there should be two more categories so people can more accurately describe the course. open, lightly wooded, evenly wooded, moderately wooded, heavily wooded.

where open describes courses where 83% (15/18) or more of the holes are mostly open (even if each has a tree or two in your way).

lightly wooded is where you may have spaced out trees with multiple paths on each hole but there is mostly no underbrush on the course and if you get off the fairway you usually still have an open path to go towards the basket. OR even if 66% (12/18) holes would be considered open and the other 6 are of varying degrees of wooded.

evenly wooded would be courses where you would consider close to 50% moderate to heavily wooded and 50% open or lightly wooded. so anything in the 8/18 - 10/18 range where it's a solid mixture you call it evenly wooded.

moderately wooded would be courses where anything in the 66% to 77% of the holes have fairways defined by dense woods and the others can be open or lightly wooded. Or if most of the holes are in the woods but the fairways are the wide mowed down path style.

then heavily wooded would describe almost courses completly in the woods with 83% or more of the holes have fairways defined by thick woods and underbrush.

That's a good idea although I feel like I'd have to have those descriptions on the update page for people to know what to choose (maybe put the percentages in). Plus I'd have to get creative with icons.