Definition of Wooded (& Hilly) - regional differences

[mashnut]

To the original post, I haven't gone through and looked systematically, but I have seen trends in some places. In Michigan and Wisconsin I remember playing several courses where I thought they underestimated how wooded it was. Texas, Nevada and California overrated how wooded, and Texas and Nevada overrated how hilly.

[Dave242]

Originally Posted by mashnut

To the original post, I haven't gone through and looked systematically, but I have seen trends in some places. In Michigan and Wisconsin I remember playing several courses where I thought they underestimated how wooded it was. Texas, Nevada and California overrated how wooded, and Texas and Nevada overrated how hilly.

Mash - that is why I spent about 2 hours last night (while watching the Blackhawks) compiling the list - 201 18+ holers. I too had my impressions/thoughts, but they were anecdotal.....not enough to form conclusions on. And, yet I kept on hearing people talking about distinct/prove-able regional issues (I quoted them from that one thread).

I do not think for 1 minute that my "research" puts this to bed, but I am not inclined to think there are major systemic issues.....but I do think there are errors/misunderstandings that almost all areas have - some areas slightly more than others.

That said, I have not played much at all in the more sparsely forested and dry areas of the country (desert/ish & Rocky Mtn areas). I am talking about TX, AZ, CA, NV, CO, NM, UT, MT?, ID. The very small number of course I played in CA and TX seemed set up about right.

[timg]

Ok, so if I was to expand on the 3 categories:

Flat - Mostly Flat - Moderately Hilly - Very Hilly - Extremely Hilly
Open - Lightly Wooded - Evenly Wooded - Moderately Wooded - Heavily Wooded

Thoughts?

[sidewinder22]

Evenly Wooded just sounds weird as a description title, sounds more like the whole course is in the woods still. Wouldn't Open/Wooded Mix, or Evenly Mixed be a little better?

What would define Very Hilly vs Extremely Hilly? Total elevation change?

[Lewis]

I think "evenly wooded" is an ambiguous term. I also see that "moderately" is the middle choice in hilliness and the second heaviest in woodiness. That could lead to confusion, so I'd suggest replacing "evenly wooded" with "moderately wooded" and choosing another term for the second highest woodiness. Maybe "mostly wooded"?

[Lewis]

Originally Posted by sidewinder22

What would define Very Hilly vs Extremely Hilly? Total elevation change?

Follow up question: elevation change is fairly easy to quantify, but do you just measure the net difference between tee and basket or do you take the deep valley between them into account?

[sidewinder22]

Originally Posted by Lewis

Follow up question: elevation change is fairly easy to quantify, but do you just measure the net difference between tee and basket or do you take the deep valley between them into account?

I think you are talking about one hole, where I'm talking about the whole course from the lowest point to the highest point. But yeah the valley would be included if that valley was the lowest part of the course.

[BionicRib]

Originally Posted by timg

Ok, so if I was to expand on the 3 categories:

Flat - Mostly Flat - Moderately Hilly - Very Hilly - Extremely Hilly
Open - Lightly Wooded - Evenly Wooded - Moderately Wooded - Heavily Wooded

Thoughts?

I think that this is a great idea. Although the definitions of each would need to be clearly defined so people have a better understanding of exactly what each means. Maybe have a handfull of courses put up for debate in different regions of the country (popular courses that a lot of people play, not necessarily high rated courses). That way you may get rid of some of the regional bias when descriptions are added for new courses.

I'm sure this will be widely debated.......but for "hilly" measurements I would suggest having a range of how many holes on the course have an increase or decrease of 10' vs 5' vs 20+ft.......This would be a lot of work, but I think elevation change on a tee sign should be the norm (although I know there are few courses out there that follow this practice). Anyways just some thoughts, but I again having clear definitions will help clear up the bias IMO

[timg]

I just added extremely hilly to even up the choices. As for evenly wooded, yea, I wasn't too crazy about it either. I'll have to give it some more thought. New013 had a pretty good definition for the wooded stuff IMO.

[DavidSauls]

Add some guidance on courses that mix two styles. I can think of several in which the front 9 is Lightly Wooded, the back 9 moderately, even heavily wooded. I can think of at least 2 which have big differences in hilliness between the front 9 & back 9. I'm never sure how to characterize these.