PDGA Approval Questions

[Carnavas]

Sorry if it's been asked before, it'd be a bit ambiguous to search for.

My questions are
1) Why were certain discs (ie aero, spider, leopard, etc) approved both as CE and not CE versions? Was it just that premium plastic was new and they weren't sure about some things?
2) Why has the monster not been approved twice as it has different molds? Same with the eagle (the pdf lists old and new eagles, but I'm under the assumption that the old eagle was drastically different from both x and l molds)

PDF for reference.
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/...scs_020813.pdf

Feel free to ask other questions as well!

[notroman]

Because the PDGA is incredibly inconsistent about enforcing their own rules and the manufacturers take advantage of that because they can get away with it.

[Scoot_er]

Originally Posted by Carnavas

Sorry if it's been asked before, it'd be a bit ambiguous to search for.

My questions are
1) Why were certain discs (ie aero, spider, leopard, etc) approved both as CE and not CE versions? Was it just that premium plastic was new and they weren't sure about some things?
2) Why has the monster not been approved twice as it has different molds? Same with the eagle (the pdf lists old and new eagles, but I'm under the assumption that the old eagle was drastically different from both x and l molds)

PDF for reference.
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/...scs_020813.pdf

Feel free to ask other questions as well!

Part of the answer is a nice loophole......keep the name...keep the approval. Pretty sure some companies have even made a totally new disc using an old name and avoided approval.

[notroman]

Originally Posted by Scoot_er

Part of the answer is a nice loophole......keep the name...keep the approval. Pretty sure some companies have even made a totally new disc using an old name and avoided approval.

Yep, this happened a few times that I know of. Probably even more times that I don't know of.

[tbird888]

The CE Eagle (according to discspeed) is the Eagle-L. Maybe the reason the EL isn't listed on the docs is because they don't sell the X and L as anything other than Eagles, but there are TeeBirds and TLs and Firebirds and FLs.

With the way Dave likes to tweak his molds, they probably should all have to be recertified since they're not molding inconsistencies, they're actual mold changes.

[notroman]

Originally Posted by tbird888

The CE Eagle (according to discspeed) is the Eagle-L. Maybe the reason the EL isn't listed on the docs is because they don't sell the X and L as anything other than Eagles, but there are TeeBirds and TLs and Firebirds and FLs.

With the way Dave likes to tweak his molds, they probably should all have to be recertified since they're not molding inconsistencies, they're actual mold changes.

Gateway has done the same in the past. I know the current Apache is a completely different disc from the old Apache. They just used the same name so they don't have to pay to get it approved again.

Innova is getting pretty ballsy too, actually STAMPING different Roc names on their different Roc molds. Star San Marino Roc, Star Rancho Roc... They're all approved by the same mold name. But judging by the past, Innova can get away with a lot more than some of the other manufacturers.

[Cgkdisc]

The manufacturers are only required to resubmit when there are mold changes that change the dimensions that are actually part of the disc specifications. Different plastic in the same mold does not require a resubmission unless the manufacturer wishes to have it tested because they suspect something like the flexibility might be too stiff.

Note in the Disc Spec diagram on the bottom of Page 2: http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-t...ers-guidelines that the shape of the curvature from the Leading Edge to the where the disc Height and inner Rim Width are measured is not specified. As long as the Height and Rim Width dimensions haven't changed, the manufacturer can fiddle around with the curve both above and below the Leading Edge. As far as meeting Tech Standards, it's the same disc. Same thing with the dome. There is no dome spec. Because of where the Height is measured, flat, raised or sunken domes can come from the same approved mold.

[tbird888]

Originally Posted by notroman

Gateway has done the same in the past. I know the current Apache is a completely different disc from the old Apache. They just used the same name so they don't have to pay to get it approved again.

Innova is getting pretty ballsy too, actually STAMPING different Roc names on their different Roc molds. Star San Marino Roc, Star Rancho Roc... They're all approved by the same mold name. But judging by the past, Innova can get away with a lot more than some of the other manufacturers.

I bring this argument up every time this discussion comes up, and I'm resisting the urge to do it now. For an organization that could probably use the cert money, this seems like a loophole that needs to be closed. Aside from the Roc, I also question the plus molds. They're far from the same as the original mold that was submitted for certification, but because they're within the same specs as the mold they're emulating they don't require certification. They're also sold under differentiated names if you count the +.

[notroman]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

The manufacturers are only required to resubmit when there are mold changes that change the dimensions that are actually part of the disc specifications. Different plastic in the same mold does not require a resubmission unless the manufacturer wishes to have it tested because they suspect something like the flexibility might be too stiff.

Note in the Disc Spec diagram on the bottom of Page 2: http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-t...ers-guidelines that the shape of the curvature from the Leading Edge to the where the disc Height and inner Rim Width are measured is not specified. As long as the Height and Rim Width dimensions haven't changed, the manufacturer can fiddle around with the curve both above and below the Leading Edge. As far as meeting Tech Standards, it's the same disc. Same thing with the dome. There is no dome spec. Because of where the Height is measured, flat, raised or sunken domes can come from the same approved mold.

Wouldn't "rim configuration" be affected by different shapes of the wing? I know they only test the initial 5mm of the wing, but with the rim configuration numbers in the approved list being rounded up to the nearest 1/100th of a millimeter, I figured even slight mold tweaks would produce a noticeable change in that number.

[onemilemore]

As the game has grown and more consumers come into the market, has the PDGA thought about tightening their standards? Seems like people get upset by the changes that aren't viewed as changes by the governing body, yet still have a major effect on disc performance.