#131  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:12 PM
joe_kool315's Avatar
joe_kool315 joe_kool315 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHolicki View Post
Example: I was at a DD Two disc challenge today and asked the guy running the event how the two plastics fuzion and lucid fly with the escape. And he said the fuzion is "more stable". Can someone clear this up for me?
AND ... back to the OP's question.

Knowing he was at a DD 2 disc challenge, he probably asked Tyler (a great communicator by the way) this question. Tyler, knowing he was in OK and having been on a long tour of the mid-west, south, south-east explaining this to new and old DG'rs alike came to the conclusion that explaining it as "more stable" than the same disc in the other plastic was MORE easily understood by the masses. AND, that if someone that really knows the "by-the-book" definition of "more stable" would have an immediate response of "so you're saying it's straighter than the lucid" because they, as well, know the rampant confusion behind that particular term.

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  #132  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:13 PM
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KGroff25 KGroff25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_kool315 View Post
But even those "standards" differ in execution by most manufacturers, discraft differs from innova that differs from gateway ... and then there's lightening MVP ... and some others that are starting to adopt a Cingular rating methodology.

How do you initially explain that to someone that been playing for ~6mo that just can't get their head around all the terminology and terms being used? Better yet, the group of "good ole boys" that's been playing longer than you've been walking upright? You seriously think they're going to come over to your way of thinking just because you refuse to accept there is more than one way to convey information to people OR stay steadfast in knowing you’re “right” and they’re “wrong” and if they can’t understand what you’re saying … errr trying to say, then they just don’t need to know??? Good luck with that one.
People also had a hard time accepting they were wrong about the world being flat and the universe revolving around the earth because it went against what they thought they knew. Some still do it today with discounting global warming or believing the earth is only a few thousand years old.

We as humans have an impressive ability to ignore facts that disagree with our beliefs, opinions, common usage, etc.
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  #133  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:15 PM
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Toro71 Toro71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbosprint View Post
And they definitely aren't going to suggest a TL.
But, if you actually read their "stability" discussion, then that's EXACTLY what they're going to recommend. You may not like it, but that's where THEY'RE coming from here.
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  #134  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:17 PM
DBarb DBarb is offline
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Typical DGCR, turning a simple question/answer thread into a 100 page argument about **** that has NOTHING to do with what the original post asked.
BogeyNoMore explained it perfectly, for even the dumbest of people, on the very first page, yet you people think there's a reason to post 15 pages of bs just for the sake of arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
IMO, it's a simple matter of understanding the English language. The term "more" is relative to begin with, and has no context without a comparative reference. "I need more money," implies you need more than you currently have, or than the amount being discussed.

One disc can be more stable than another, meaning it has greater stability than the other.
A Firebird is more stable than a Viking, which is more stable than a Valk, which is more stable than a Sidewinder... Road Runner.

Hence the phrase "more stable" can be used to compare two understable discs (Sidewinder and Roadrunner) relative to each other.

Describing a single disc as being more stable makes no sense, as it lacks a basis for comparison.

Within the context of the game, Understable, Stable, and Overstable make sense when describing a single disc, but in actuality, even they are relative terms.
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  #135  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:18 PM
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KGroff25 KGroff25 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Notice that they never use the term "more stable" or "less stable" on their website. They don't want to upset the people with the weird semantic agenda or those who don't know what they're talking about because they want to sell more discs. They care more about selling discs than they do convincing people that trying to be technically right (even though there is no evidence they are) is worse than being actually useful so they avoid the terms all together.
Or maybe they don't use more or less stable because it's an improper or not very meaningful description.
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  #136  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:19 PM
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joe_kool315 joe_kool315 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGroff25 View Post
People also had a hard time accepting they were wrong about the world being flat and the universe revolving around the earth because it went against what they thought they knew. Some still do it today with discounting global warming or believing the earth is only a few thousand years old.

We as humans have an impressive ability to ignore facts that disagree with our beliefs, opinions, common usage, etc.


Agreed ... and again you guys are preaching to the choir as I fully understand the concepts "they" created to describe their discs. I understand them well enough to turn it into "plain talk" and get the common folk to understand it as well. If I just told them the information "as is" they surely would be as lost as this thread has gotten.
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  #137  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:25 PM
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Toro71 Toro71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
So how can something be "more than" straight?

I've outlined the logic several times. What it boils down to is that many times you need more information than just two discs to determine what "more stable" means if you use it to mean "more straight." For example if a player comes up to you and asks you how the Roadrunner and a Firebird fly compared to a Teebird you'd say they're both "less stable." That is almost entirely useless. The Teebird is one of the most popular discs of all time but you can't use it for comparison because it's more stable than almost everything.

So anytime you're trying to compare relatively neutral discs (which happens a lot), the "more stable means more straight" paradigm is horrible. Is a Banshee more or less stable than an Eagle? What's more stable, a Whippet or a Cheetah? None of those discs are particularly straight so what answer you get will depend on the person and then it won't be all that useful becasue the "less stable" disc could be more or less overstable than the "more stable" disc.

Using the "more stable" means "more overstable" paradigm there's no question that a Banshee is more stable than an Eagle and a Whippet is more stable than a Cheetah. How is that not better?
I'm pretty sure I never said this wasn't "better." It's just not what the rating system intends.
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  #138  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:26 PM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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Ask a simple question, get a simple answer...
But wait, this is disc golf - there are no simple answers!

When I first starting playing, I appreciated (what I then perceived to be) the elegance of the game's simplicity: Tee. Basket. Disc.--> have fun putting disc in basket.
Now, I find myself revelling in minutia of the game's complexities.
I just think it's funny how nothing's changed except my perspective.

Some of what's being said is a matter of semantics and people being wordsmithy (looks in mirror), but a good deal of it is meaningful in that it's helpful for people to be on the same page to avoid mis-interpretting what one says/hears.

I genuinely don't mean this to seem rude... but like many threads, some people see this subject one way, while others see it differently. Each thinks the other is wrong, pompous/ignorant. While many listen to to what others say, it seems few are actually willing to "open their minds" to it. No doubt I'm guilty of it myself. But I genuinely do try my best to enlighten and entertain, rather than insight (well, most of the time).

Nonetheless, I enjoy these semi-academic discussions. Continue please.

Last edited by BogeyNoMore; 02-15-2013 at 12:30 PM.
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  #139  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:28 PM
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Toro71 Toro71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DBarb View Post
Typical DGCR, turning a simple question/answer thread into a 100 page argument about **** that has NOTHING to do with what the original post asked.
BogeyNoMore explained it perfectly, for even the dumbest of people, on the very first page, yet you people think there's a reason to post 15 pages of bs just for the sake of arguing.
Said the guy with the angry post on page 15...
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  #140  
Old 02-15-2013, 12:32 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Using the "more stable" means "more overstable" paradigm there's no question that a Banshee is more stable than an Eagle and a Whippet is more stable than a Cheetah. How is that not better?
Its not better because by the definition of the standard setters, during the portion of flight before the disc stalls:
Stable = Straight
Overstable = Curves left (rhbh)

So......

"More Straight Flight = More Curving Flight".......makes no sense at all.
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