#21  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:44 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
It causes plenty of wobble if you watch the high speed videos. Again, it does change the plane of the disc, but it changes it with respect to your pull plane. Throwing a disc cleanly with 10 degrees of anhyzer does not give you the same flight as pulling through flat then rolling the disc 10 degrees anhyzer.
Interesting. FYI....I am wide open to being wrong (and the stupid one in this conversation).

Can you (or anyone) grab a couple of such videos and post them here? If I can clearly see what you are talking about, I'll change my tune.
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  #22  
Old 03-28-2013, 03:49 PM
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bradharris bradharris is offline
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Are you talking about precession? I am having a hard time imagining wobbling that is not precession (unless the top is out of balance. Like a glob of mud on the rim of a disc like Carnavas said upthread...or an Epic)
Technically OAT is precession.

Read this wiki on precession. Focus primarily on the section about Torque-free precession, and I think that describes what we would refer to as OAT.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:53 PM
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Goon13 Goon13 is offline
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It might help if you visualize your disc as an airplane. Application of force and torque will cause a reaction of the airplane in the terms of acceleration (linear or angular). If you want to roll one direction you move the control stick left or right causing one aileron to go up and one to go down - this generates an aerodynamic torque that imparts an angular acceleration to the aircraft. To stop the roll the the pilot moves the control stick in the other direction.

OAT in discs is similar. Your hand can apply force and torques in all three axes. A typical throw wants only a torque applied in the spin axis of the disc and a force in the same direction of the initial trajectory. Up/down or left/right forces simply alter trajectory of the disc. OAT refer to the torque applied in either non-spin axis during the throw. Torque can only be applied when the disc is in contact with your hand, once the disc leaves your hand only the disc rotational velocity remains. Aerodynamics of the disc will then determine what happens to the trajectory. Discs that are "stable" in the OAT axis will fight to correct the angular acceleration imparted by OAT and correct back to intended trajectory. Often times the motion imparted has a nutational or precessional nature (flutter). If the disc is "neutral" or "understable" it will not be able to stop the angular rate and will turn in the direction of the OAT and alter trajectory completely.

You can produce the same anhyzer angle with OAT on a flat throw as you can with an anhyzer release. Take a neutral midrange and try to throw straight, but on your follow throw don't keep your arm in the plane of the disc, follow through on a downward angle (might take some practice). The disc will come out of your hand with an angular rate that neutral midrange can't stop. Eventually the disc will reach an anhyzer angle, stabilize and fly off on the same trajectory as if you had thrown it on that anhyzer angle.
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  #24  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:08 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Interesting. FYI....I am wide open to being wrong (and the stupid one in this conversation).

Can you (or anyone) grab a couple of such videos and post them here? If I can clearly see what you are talking about, I'll change my tune.
Here's one of Will's drives that shows some wobble. Watch the disc right before he releases, there's a little bit of change in the wing angle during the hit and noticeable wobble out of his hand, though that might not be visible wobble at real speed.

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  #25  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:35 PM
garublador garublador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Good to know I understand correctly......seriously: when I posted this I had a nagging feeling OAT might be referring more to the motion of the arm in the pull-through that the actual imparting of torque onto the disc on release.

That said, accidentally turning a disc over has almost everything to do with rolling the wrist (or leaning back or whatever it takes) to get the plane of the disc into an anhyzer position. It has almost nothing to do with rotational velocity on the disc around the front-to-back axis ("roll" in the airplane vernacular).
Throwing an anhyzer is totally different than a disc turning and burning from a hyzer. People with OAT problems will flip discs from a hyzer angle that would normally cause the disc not to flilp. So they can't possibly be both throwing hyzer and anhyzer, there must be some other force that's causing the disc to flip.

Quote:
One of the main reasons OAT has very limited affect (other than the vastly lower proportional speed to its On-Axis velocity and forward velocity), is the gyroscopic effect of a spinning disc....especially one weighted mostly on the perimeter. If you have ever taken a bicycle wheel, held it by the axle and spun it, you will notice that it really resists any OAT (including any wobble induced onto it).
That's an argument for OAT being the problem. Notice how wide rimmed discs resist OAT way more than narrow rimmed discs. It's becasue of their greater angular momentum. If it were only a release angle issue then wide rimmed discs wouldn't resist the problem we're describing more than narrow rimmed discs.

The angular momentum of the disc is why the discs don't tumble end over end becasue of OAT, but that doesn't mean that it's so high that we can't overcome it. How can we be strong enough to get the disc to spin but not strong enough to make the disc turn at all? At science centers they have a spinning wheel much larger and heavier than a disc that little children are strong enough to force off axis. It's harder to force off-axis than a non spinning wheel, which is what the demonstration shows, but they can still do it. In the case of a disc we have a much, much lighter object with a much smaller radius and we are much stronger than little children.

Based on that it's a very valid hypothesis that we might be able to change the flight of a disc using OAT. It's also been tested many thousands of times over by people who bought discs that were too fast for them and then ended up not being able to throw putters and mids because they turned over too hard no matter how much hyzer they put on them. Not to mention all of the experienced players who use OAT to shape shots. There is no evidence that we can not produce enough OAT to change the flight of a disc and countless throws that are evidence that we can.
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  #26  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
Here's one of Will's drives that shows some wobble. Watch the disc right before he releases, there's a little bit of change in the wing angle during the hit and noticeable wobble out of his hand, though that might not be visible wobble at real speed.

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Good stuff....thanks for digging this up. I had seen this before, but never watched it for OAT.

The throw at :41 does not appear to have any wrist roll/OAT....but plenty of wobble. I see the same amount of flight plate from when the disc comes across his body until the disc leaves his hand

1:13 has no wrist roll/OAT. If anything, there is a slight bobble to the hyzer as the disc is ripping out.

1:41 has a little bit of wrist roll and it is an anhyzer angle of release.....but there is not enough evidence whether the continued anny flight is caused solely by the angle of his wrist at release or the rotation of his wrist during release.

My argument in this thread is that it is all about the essentially static angle of the wrist at release and an minuscule at best affect due to vertical speed imparted to the edge of the disc (cause by wrist and/or arm and/or back motion) at the release. Not saying that I am completely right, but this very cool video does not do much to change my mind.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:43 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Unfortunately I don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence, but it's something I've worked on in my own field work after reading things here and in DGR's technique forum. I can get the same disc to fly slightly differently with the same angle of release by adding small amounts of wrist roll. The easiest example is making a disc thrown flat finish left, straight or right by just slightly rolling under or over at release.

I disagree on the throw at 0:41 btw, it comes across his chest basically flat and leaves his hand slightly hyzered.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:59 PM
zj1002 zj1002 is offline
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How I view, define and control OAT:

OAT deals with the plane on which you push your body forward, and then how you alter that by drastically, and abruptly, by changing the rip angle of the arm. Lets say I need an Orion LF to flip at a point 300ft down the fairway for a 450ft shot that finishes right. I will intentionally add OAT by setting my body up to push through on a straight run-up hyzer, note I said body not the angle of my disc. When the disc comes into my power zone I will start to push it forward, my arm and consequently my disc will uncoil until the the disc reaches a forward apex where I can no longer hold onto it. Before it reaches this apex I can abprutly change the direction of how I alter my hyzer plane by how I push through with my arm. My body mind you is still throwing a hyzer, but I can keep the disc flat and have my arm finish on any angle I wish. I am not actively pulling my arm back, but changing the angle at which it will push forward and the forward motion of my body weight will naturally follow through on the intended angle. If I push my arm through the power apex with a flat or anhyzer release, the disc will flip up, and if under-stable enough, over into a turn.

A really good example of controlled OAT is Garret Gurthie. If you can find videos of him throwing distance, he is throwing a distance hyzer flip using OAT. He extends his body all the way forward on a hyzer, but his follow through isn't a normal hyzer. His arm is pulled back and down. By keeping the nose down this creates a massive distance shot where the disc can catch more air and the nose will literally drop out, causing it to dump into a turnover before hyzering out as it slows down. OAT is best used with a hyzer or flat approach angle, as this can generate a more suitable nose down flight.

Last edited by zj1002; 03-28-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2013, 05:04 PM
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bradharris bradharris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zj1002 View Post
How I view, define and control OAT:

OAT deals with the plane on which you push your body forward, and then how you alter that by drastically, and abruptly, by changing the rip angle of the arm. Lets say I need an Orion LF to flip at a point 300ft down the fairway for a 450ft shot that finishes right. I will intentionally add OAT by setting my body up to push through on a straight run-up hyzer, note I said body not the angle of my disc. When the disc comes into my power zone I will start to push it forward, my arm and consequently my disc will uncoil until the the disc reaches a forward apex where I can no longer hold onto it. Before it reaches this apex I can abprutly change the direction of how I alter my hyzer plane by how I push through with my arm. My body mind you is still throwing a hyzer, but I can keep the disc flat and have my arm finish on any angle I wish. I am not actively pulling my arm back, but changing the angle at which it will push forward and the forward motion of my body weight will naturally follow through on the intended angle. If I push my arm through the power apex with a flat or anhyzer release, the disc will flip up, and if under-stable enough, over into a turn.

A really good example of controlled OAT is Garret Gurthie. If you can find videos of him throwing distance, he is throwing a distance hyzer flip using OAT. He extends his body all the way forward on a hyzer, but his follow through isn't a normal hyzer. His arm is pulled back and down. By keeping the nose down this creates a massive distance shot where the disc can catch more air and the nose will literally drop out, causing it to dump into a turnover before hyzering out as it slows down. OAT is best used with a hyzer or flat approach angle, as this can generate a more suitable nose down flight.
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2013, 05:04 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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I wish I had become a aeronautical engineer rather than electrical....or had the passion to learn like I did back in the day. I admittedly have a ton to learn if I wanted to about aerodynamics (and some aspects physics too).....but I do know this: there a variety of forces acting on a disc as it flys....and those forces are are changing on their own and in relation to each other as the velocity, rotation speeds, smoothness of the material, density of the air, angles, etc change. Very complex and fascinating!

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Throwing an anhyzer is totally different than a disc turning and burning from a hyzer. People with OAT problems will flip discs from a hyzer angle that would normally cause the disc not to flilp. So they can't possibly be both throwing hyzer and anhyzer, there must be some other force that's causing the disc to flip.
This sounds convincing, but I would like to see video evidence of this. I suspect that possibly what is happening is their pull through is a hyzer, but their release is actually anyhzer.....and little had to do with actual rotation of the disc along its front-to-back axis. Again, I am open to being wrong......I am a total neophyte as a student of throwing mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
That's an argument for OAT being the problem. Notice how wide rimmed discs resist OAT way more than narrow rimmed discs. It's becasue of their greater angular momentum. If it were only a release angle issue then wide rimmed discs wouldn't resist the problem we're describing more than narrow rimmed discs.
But, assuming the that flight plates are the same weight, wouldn't a narrow rim disc have more angular momentum since the rim weight is concentrated closer to the edge of the disc (a smaller cross-section triangle)?

I suspect the wider rims provide more stability due to the aerodynamics of a wider wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
The angular momentum of the disc is why the discs don't tumble end over end becasue of OAT, but that doesn't mean that it's so high that we can't overcome it. How can we be strong enough to get the disc to spin but not strong enough to make the disc turn at all? At science centers they have a spinning wheel much larger and heavier than a disc that little children are strong enough to force off axis. It's harder to force off-axis than a non spinning wheel, which is what the demonstration shows, but they can still do it. In the case of a disc we have a much, much lighter object with a much smaller radius and we are much stronger than little children.
I don't know. I am pretty sure that the aerodynamics have a lot to do with it. Taking the affects of air away by seeing a disc thrown in a vacuum would be interesting.....and not just because the thrower would explode

Quote:
Originally Posted by garublador View Post
Based on that it's a very valid hypothesis that we might be able to change the flight of a disc using OAT. It's also been tested many thousands of times over by people who bought discs that were too fast for them and then ended up not being able to throw putters and mids because they turned over too hard no matter how much hyzer they put on them. Not to mention all of the experienced players who use OAT to shape shots. There is no evidence that we can not produce enough OAT to change the flight of a disc and countless throws that are evidence that we can.
ditto to my response on the first quote. Add to that the speed at which a disc is thrown has a ton to do with how much it flips.....and how quickly the overstable nature of the disc puts it into its slow speed fade.
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