#71  
Old 03-29-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Or....do I misunderstand what OAT is?
Ben Hogan's Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf

The above is a book written by one of golf's greatest players. In it, he explains the importance of keeping the body in line on a correct "axis" to maximize power in the swing. He referred to one kind of "off axis torque" as lifting the front shoulder during the swing that causes upper body to move back, instead of forward, in a torquing motion. This would result in a slice instead of a driving forward in momentum. He was very clear that moving the body on the correct axis on hips and shoulders is the key to maximum force into the ball. The book was originally published in the 1960's. I had a copy as a young man. Golf instructors have used the fundamentals in the book to teach players for decades now. As far as I know, that is the source of the term.

In disc golf, lifting the front shoulder results in an anny release that torques the disc in a forced turnover. Since you aren't driving forward with maximum power when you do this, you are in effect "off axis". Most players that lack the power in their game to throw a "warp speed" overstable disc will throw in this manner to force the disc to go somewhat straight down the fairway.

If thrown using the correct (shoulders on a horizontal axis) form, the same line can be achieved using an Eagle (or similar disc) with greater distance. Thus the continued call by players to "disc down" to allow for smoother, more powerful form.

In a nutshell, off axis is altering the spin on the ball or disc off of the x,y,z centerline. You are torquing it when you don't turn your back in a straight line, but you lean back as you throw or swing.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Agricolae View Post
Could you see them if they did?

Not trying to be an *ss, but dang, man, put down the stick!
I might be able to see the 2 (or more) axes that has torque around them if shown.

I assume the stick you speak of is beating a dead horse. Is that correct? If so, what horse is dead? I still have not had anyone give me a clear answer on what OAT is.

Unlike some people, I have spent almost no time in the technique area of this forum.....so I apologize if I accidentally opened a can of worms that has been beat to death before. But, I keep overhearing the term OAT....and it makes no sense to me.
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  #73  
Old 03-29-2013, 10:29 AM
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Using the body to "pull" (usually back or up - or both) off line.
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  #74  
Old 03-29-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eegor View Post
Ben Hogan's Five Lessons: The Modern Fundamentals of Golf

The above is a book written by one of golf's greatest players. In it, he explains the importance of keeping the body in line on a correct "axis" to maximize power in the swing. He referred to one kind of "off axis torque" as lifting the front shoulder during the swing that causes upper body to move back, instead of forward, in a torquing motion. This would result in a slice instead of a driving forward in momentum. He was very clear that moving the body on the correct axis on hips and shoulders is the key to maximum force into the ball. The book was originally published in the 1960's. I had a copy as a young man. Golf instructors have used the fundamentals in the book to teach players for decades now. As far as I know, that is the source of the term.
.......
If thrown using the correct (shoulders on a horizontal axis) form, the same line can be achieved using an Eagle (or similar disc) with greater distance. Thus the continued call by players to "disc down" to allow for smoother, more powerful form.
This makes perfect sense to me when you are talking about the axes and torques applying to the rotation of the body and arms. Each joint in the body is an axis that another body part rotates around. So, there are a ton of axes making for very complex motion (especially the spine that has tons of joints). It makes complete sense that you want all motion to coordinate to achieve maximum acceleration (and consistency).

For this, "Off-Axis Torque" makes some sense.....but it is much more helpful to think of things in Planes and Lines. I am fine with overlooking semantics though if this is what OAT is actually about. But, OPM (Out of Plane Motion) or OLM (Out of Line Motion), would be much better terms.

In fact, I admitted as such early in the thread that I suspected it was about the motion of the body/arm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Good to know I understand correctly......seriously: when I posted this I had a nagging feeling OAT might be referring more to the motion of the arm in the pull-through than the actual imparting of torque onto the disc on release.
And even the very first reply challenged my thought that the Torque in OAT was a torque acting on the disc that affects the flight (in a dynamic that is in addition to the angle of release):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnavas View Post
I was thinking it was if some part of your limb kind of moves off the flat plane upon release, causing the disc to not release completely flat?
But......then you (and plenty of others) keep talking about torquing the disc (forcing a rotation on it in an axis other than around the spinning motion):

Quote:
Originally Posted by eegor View Post
In disc golf, lifting the front shoulder results in an anny release that torques the disc in a forced turnover. Since you aren't driving forward with maximum power when you do this, you are in effect "off axis". Most players that lack the power in their game to throw a "warp speed" overstable disc will throw in this manner to force the disc to go somewhat straight down the fairway.
........
In a nutshell, off axis is altering the spin on the ball or disc off of the x,y,z centerline. You are torquing it when you don't turn your back in a straight line, but you lean back as you throw or swing.
This has nothing to do with torque and and everything to do with the angle of the disc on release. Yes, you need to throw a "warp speed" disc with an anny angle when throwing at lower speeds to counteract it going into its low speed hyzer fade as quickly as it wants to. That is accomplished by many by using the poor form technique of rolling the wrist.
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  #75  
Old 03-29-2013, 10:55 AM
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Long post there (sorry)....but I think I get it finally: OAT really refers to the rotating motions of the body in the throwing motion leading up to the release......and since it is such a confusing on non-descriptive term, the vast majority (including many experts/teachers) is all confused (like I was) hence a ton of misuse of the term.....which has ended up making it more confusing and useless.
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  #76  
Old 03-29-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
This makes perfect sense to me when you are talking about the axes and torques applying to the rotation of the body and arms. Each joint in the body is an axis that another body part rotates around. So, there are a ton of axes making for very complex motion (especially the spine that has tons of joints). It makes complete sense that you want all motion to coordinate to achieve maximum acceleration (and consistency).
This is the basis for the Beato Rail. I believe.

I'd call it "Off-Planar Torque" personally, but I'm not sure if that would be any more correct than OAT. Either way, if you can get a feel for it, and then see it in disc flight, you can usually figure out what it is and how to correct it. Which is kind of why no one really worries about terms being completely innaccurate. Understanding terms didn't matter to us until we felt it, and after we felt it we could call it whatever we want.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Ensor View Post
This is the basis for the Beato Rail. I believe.

I'd call it "Off-Planar Torque" personally, but I'm not sure if that would be any more correct than OAT. Either way, if you can get a feel for it, and then see it in disc flight, you can usually figure out what it is and how to correct it. Which is kind of why no one really worries about terms being completely innaccurate. Understanding terms didn't matter to us until we felt it, and after we felt it we could call it whatever we want.
I guess I take things too literally. To me, using the term OAT the way many/most use it, is like calling a disc you jank way off to the right a "worm burner".....since you know there are lots of worms off the fairway on the right (especially near the hole on #8).
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:25 AM
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In ball golf, you would hear a lot "I got too amped".

That's about like OAT. "Amped" is when you get excited and deloft your clubface and several other things ... "amped" doesn't immediately imply any of those things, but if you ask a golfer what "amped" is, if they've been there, recognized it, and fixed it, they know what it is and how to avoid or accentuate it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Ensor View Post
In ball golf, you would hear a lot "I got too amped".

That's about like OAT. "Amped" is when you get excited and deloft your clubface and several other things ... "amped" doesn't immediately imply any of those things, but if you ask a golfer what "amped" is, if they've been there, recognized it, and fixed it, they know what it is and how to avoid or accentuate it.
Interesting.

But "Amped" has no misleading connotations to me like "Torque" does when you are not even talking about torque.

To my geeky EE-ness, "Amped" has a connotation of more electrical current (amperage) running through your system.....amplified, charged up, etc. The connotation is all about getting excited and ahead of yourself, so it fits.
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  #80  
Old 03-29-2013, 12:07 PM
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Whatever you decide to call it more people need to accept that's their problem. I always enjoy a player telling me that driver is too flippy for his barely 400ft arm when I watch people with good form struggle to even flip one up straight on a five hundred foot toss.
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