#291  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:12 PM
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Peter, for your reference you can click on the Member's posting name, select DGCR Profile and see if they have a PDGA number.
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  #292  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:31 PM
Picked_Up Picked_Up is offline
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I'm not saying that is the end all to be all. But you have to plant seeds to have something grow. In the end it will cost more than that $10,000 startup. My question becomes "Does it have the potential to become a bigger return on investment?" Personally I think it does, but I'm also 26. I have the luxury of knowing everything for about four more years.
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  #293  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:03 PM
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onemilemore onemilemore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shive View Post
Damn good questions! I think about this a lot, and could write volumes about it. Frankly, I'm uncertain about my role, and my value, on the Board. I'm not interested in spearheading a coalition unless I believe that the membership is solidly behind me. I don't believe that yet. I almost lost in the last election. Sometimes I characterize myself as "the best known disc golfer to almost lose a Board election". And I wouldn't say that the responses to my ideas here constitute a ringing endorsement of them.

Probably my most useful function to the membership has been communication. I will tell you just about anything you want to know, and I'll give you my opinion even if I think (or even know) you won't like it. On the Board, probably my most useful function is analysis, and I'll skip the 1000 words it would take to flesh out that thought.

So yes, there is frustration because I go down in flames a lot, and I worry about irritating Brian and the other Board members. But still, I'm OK with my role (I sometimes characterize myself as "the heretic"), and comfortable about what I bring to the table, both for the membership and the Board.
Peter, I not only appreciate your self-awareness, but I also appreciate that you don't shy away from rocking the boat. Whether you are the person to enact some change in the PDGA or not, your respectful manner in trying to do so is certainly laying the groundwork. Kudos, and keep bringing us your informed opinions.
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  #294  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:51 PM
michael bacon michael bacon is offline
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reply to peter

I want to know how players feel about official review at tournaments. All professional sports have official review to legitimize the game.
I also think a limit should be put on the number of discs on a bag to speed game and to show athleticism.
Eliminate what is mistakenly called the jump putt. In the 60s and 70s we considered it an illegal shot. Its a touch and go shot. Most players are not releasing their disc with the support foot planted behind the lie. The sport is not pro basketball.
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  #295  
Old 06-19-2013, 08:55 PM
michael bacon michael bacon is offline
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reply to peter

I want to know how players feel about official review at tournaments. All professional sports have official review to legitimize the game.
I also think a limit should be put on the number of discs on a bag to speed game and to show athleticism.
Eliminate what is mistakenly called the jump putt. In the 60s and 70s we considered it an illegal shot. Its a touch and go shot. Most players are not releasing their disc with the support foot planted behind the lie. The sport is not pro basketball.
Decorum goes a long way toward attracting paying viewers
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  #296  
Old 06-21-2013, 12:10 AM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shive View Post
to DukDukgolf:

You say, "I think an Am series will simply turn into the sandbagging Pro's that can afford to travel series. It would do nothing for grassroots or building from the bottom up."

I do not propose an Amateur Tour as a grassroots or bottom-up effort. I propose it only to do something for the Ams, to compensate for their ever-increasing subsidy of the Pros. They provide the bulk of our income, and deserve more attention.

My nomination for the most effective grassroots program recently instituted by the PDGA would be Kevin McCoy's league program. My chiefly grassroots proposals are a) to give meaningful compensation to TD's, b) to leave more money with local clubs and communities (ie, lower tournament fees) and c) to reach out to recreational players.
Hi Peter. I had to bold this part because I have to differ a bit on this issue. There already is an Amateur tour in fact if not in name, It's exactly the same tour as the Pro tour, just with lesser amounts of top tier (restricted by division) events but there are a few, such as AM nats, Am worlds and even just high player number prestige tourneys such as The Memorial. I also have to disagree somewhat with the part about "Ever increasing subsidy." Maybe in actual dollars but I would imagine the percentage Ams subsidize the pros to have remained relatively stable over the years. I'll agree with you about the part about Ams deserving more attention in that it is time to change the system somewhat, they are the largest base of players in organized disc golf.
One of the biggest things that needs to be addressed is standardization, both for the few event a year Ams and the "Professional Amateur Disc Golfer," a phrase I heard last week that intrigued me. For any disc golfer that plays competitively more then just their immediate region yearly.. the tag fits. They're essentially just players playing within their rating but are self funded "touring." (some with aspirations of getting better and moving up, some just playing against fair competition and probably destined to stay the same rating over time.) The tag "Amateur Professional Disc Golfer" works equally well for pro ratings based players who only play a few tournaments a year. To some both will sound slightly offensive even though they are accurate. Between the two they make up a huge part of the player base. Both are playing "professionally" in the sense of rules, sportsmanship, competition etc. and both are amateurs in the sense that they are not fully dedicated to disc golf, they have day jobs, families, lives, etc.
The rest of the base is Touring Pros, (a tiny percent,) and regional Ams who play maybe 2-10 tournaments a year, depending on how lucky they are in local tournament availability.(a good chunk of the base, but I've been unable to find hard numbers on "average number of events per year of ams" anywhere. So how do we make everyone happy, and grow the sport at the same time? Stay tuned, and I'll rehash some of the points, suggestions, and arguments I've tossed around a few other threads, and a couple new ideas.

Last edited by Casual Squishy; 06-21-2013 at 12:15 AM.
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  #297  
Old 06-21-2013, 12:36 AM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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First, regarding pdga membership, simple solution:
First, better market the value pdga membership has in tournament structuring (providing player ratings systems, promoting overall organization of the sport, others.)
Second, improve value across the board to cater to different types of players to keep the base membership up:
Change the temp membership rules to allow a player up to 5 tournaments at the 10$ non member price, then cut them off from tournaments until they pay a 1 year membership price. Every year after they join and get a PDGA number they can either pay the full 50$ for the next year or pay the 10$ per tournament fee, and auto renew them anyways the first time they play for the year. The PDGA still gets the same amount of money either way, players who play more then 5 tournaments a year get extra value, players who play less still get what they pay for and lose the right to complain about it being not cost effective. There's no reason a player who only plays one tournament a year should be forced to pay 50$ just to keep their privilege of being current and showing their dedication to the sport. It's also helpful for PR to keep our current membership numbers high. There's also no reason for a player to complain about what is essentially a higher one time fee for all the benefits of being part of organized disc golf.
More to come on standardizing the system, growing publicity and sponsorship, the role of the pdga, the pro tour and the am subsidy issue... but may take a day or two to put together.
Thanks for opening the discussion.
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  #298  
Old 06-21-2013, 01:53 AM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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I'll tackle publicity and sponsorship in a half assed late night fashion, light on detail but to the point on basics.
Money. Marketability. Media. Yeah, I know, the three things that always come up about disc golf that we have very little of from the outside. One doesn't have to be a pdga board member to have those topics come up several times a year, all a person has to be is a tournament playing disc golfer and have a pair of ears. Everyone daydreams and compares disc golf to all the other established "big" sports and it's been the undying topic since the dinosaurs roamed the earth and the A tier was invented. (They're all grandmasters now, but aging well and still talking about it.)
"Why aren't we big like (insert name of favorite comparison sport here?)"
This post isn't really directed at Peter, he probably knows all of this inside out and hears it daily.
We're not because we're not that sport. I've tried to make the comparison before but some people find it hard to understand the business concepts and history of other sports so let's try a different method. Take disc golf out of it for a minute completely. You have a game and a concept. How do you get people to play, and spend time and money on it, and how does it generate money?
It's a skill based game, and it requires a large mass of people and time and money. Playing it though is pretty much freely available (today, although many many more courses are needed before it's "facebook" available to the masses) for anyone to go out any time and try. You've tried outside investors time and again for decades but you have nothing much more after decades to offer them then you did before and that part is a viscous circle, more players equals more money equals more investment equals more players.. you're just not big enough. You're growing at a steady enough pace to be so eventually but you want to do your best to hurry it along. You have no mass media appeal, but that's ok, neither does anything else on the scale of the NFL NHL PGA or a myriad of other initials. Every single one of those sports got their start from the outside anyways, and created the mass media appeal through marketing from that money. It's an uneven comparison at best.
Now look at online poker.. hmm, a handful of commercials and web ads in the early days.. roughly similar model wise to the "word of mouth" spread of disc golf that is still the most effective marketing of disc golf today. As the player base grew.. the number of tournaments grew. The players funded the tournaments. The companies providing get a cut. Eventually along came the "World series of poker," and it was originally largely self funded too. Anyone could get in by qualifying, not just people who had specifically gone to college for it or spent 10s of thousands of dollars taking lessons and paying play costs. Qualifiers had prizes too, and payouts for making it to certain levels of play. Soon after media attention came too and spin offs such as "late night poker" etc. became popular and sponsorship money started rolling in.
This is the business model the pdga and the player base needs to look closer at, not the undying am vs pro model, the huge outside money sports model or the specious "Spirit of amateurism" model that was designed to be exclusionary in all those "big money" sports. In all those sports you're playing with and for other peoples money, not your own. Amateurism was designed to keep people out, so the money pool was not diluted. Poker tournaments went in the exact opposite direction, they had no choice since they didn't have the money from the outside. Neither did all the early disc golf leagues that spawned tournament play.
Publicity in disc golf still remains the same for probably a long time in disc golf, word of mouth and discs in hands. And free videos on youtube.
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  #299  
Old 06-21-2013, 02:07 AM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual Squishy View Post
First, regarding pdga membership, simple solution:
First, better market the value pdga membership has in tournament structuring (providing player ratings systems, promoting overall organization of the sport, others.)
Second, improve value across the board to cater to different types of players to keep the base membership up:
Change the temp membership rules to allow a player up to 5 tournaments at the 10$ non member price, then cut them off from tournaments until they pay a 1 year membership price. Every year after they join and get a PDGA number they can either pay the full 50$ for the next year or pay the 10$ per tournament fee, and auto renew them anyways the first time they play for the year. The PDGA still gets the same amount of money either way, players who play more then 5 tournaments a year get extra value, players who play less still get what they pay for and lose the right to complain about it being not cost effective. There's no reason a player who only plays one tournament a year should be forced to pay 50$ just to keep their privilege of being current and showing their dedication to the sport. It's also helpful for PR to keep our current membership numbers high. There's also no reason for a player to complain about what is essentially a higher one time fee for all the benefits of being part of organized disc golf.
More to come on standardizing the system, growing publicity and sponsorship, the role of the pdga, the pro tour and the am subsidy issue... but may take a day or two to put together.
Thanks for opening the discussion.
Alternatively, just assign them a PDGA number after those 5 events, even if they're not in the same calendar year and make them current for the rest of the year. You could even get really different and make them play the 5 tournaments before they CAN get the number to make it seem more prestigious

Last edited by Casual Squishy; 06-21-2013 at 02:10 AM.
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  #300  
Old 06-21-2013, 02:15 AM
Casual Squishy Casual Squishy is offline
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One of the newer and lesser known benefits of pdga membership:
Many leagues these days will assign you a league handicap your very first round based on your pdga rating if you have one, a nice morsel for non scratch rated players that like to catch out of area leagues if they travel.
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