#141  
Old 07-17-2013, 04:57 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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[QUOTE=Dave242;2087600]Back on topic here.....not just for MTL, but anyone who finds this sort of endeavor admirable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
I have one of the best tournaments in the Southeast as shown by the level of travel players make to my events and the amazing payout I provide on a year to year basis/QUOTE]

Why do you feel travel players deserve to be compensated well by you?
What value do they add that earns them your money (and your sponsors' money)?
What motivates you to do this on their behalf?

When you have answered this, ask each of those questions with "TDs" in place of "travel players".
I'll venture off into the strange world of, "Why do TDs run tournaments, anyway?" It used to be that if you wanted to play in a tournament in your hometown, you had to run it because it seemed no one else would. But that was long ago.

Speaking for myself, not for Robert or anyone else, the only answer I can come up with is that it's like throwing a party. You throw a party at your house, you bust your butt to make it a good one. You want people to come---the more, the merrier. You want them to have a good time. Even if it costs you money, which it probably does.

Why does anyone throw a party? Why does anyone TD a tournament? I'm not sure, but I'm starting to think the answers are similar. Maybe not good, but similar.

Now, if the partygoers would chip in a little---maybe some money for the keg, maybe help clean the carpets afterwards---that would be nice, too.
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  #142  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:07 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Speaking for myself, not for Robert or anyone else, the only answer I can come up with is that it's like throwing a party. You throw a party at your house, you bust your butt to make it a good one. You want people to come---the more, the merrier. You want them to have a good time. Even if it costs you money, which it probably does.

Why does anyone throw a party? Why does anyone TD a tournament? I'm not sure, but I'm starting to think the answers are similar. Maybe not good, but similar.
I like this thought process! It does fall apart a little though when you bring in outside sponsorship cash and hand it out to party crashers - who happen to usually be cool guys but are the ones least likely to contribute to the work going into running the party.

Sam Nicholson (CDGC Treasurer and 2012 Worlds director) is excellent at appropriating funds for and doing the work of throwing actual parties for the club. It is his (and was our) priority to party down with those contributing to the club more so than to line the pockets of ringers who show up at PDGA events.
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  #143  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:41 PM
Royal Hill Royal Hill is offline
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I like this last twist on the conversation. (party analogy)

to extend it... are we considering the quality of the party is perhaps being measured by the differnt metrics of: (different metrics for differn't folks?)

What was there (stuff)
or
Who was there (pros? the rest of us?)
or
What favors they gave out (gifts)
or
How much you won against the house (payout)

It interests me in the sense of correlation of the metrics desired to the player caliber of the host. Does it ring true that TDs seem to draw up structures to fit people/attenders with characteristics most like their own? (i.e. I want to have a party for competitive players with skills like me, since that is my peer group?)
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  #144  
Old 07-17-2013, 06:44 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
You see, when Dave was in the club, Charlotte events were basically boycotted amongst NC. ...... But Charlotte was known for years for bad payouts. Depsite amazing courses and a great town, sanctioned events had 40 people or so. Pretty amazing that I can get all these players on crappy courses but until a few years ago, charlotte couldn't get many on amazing courses.....
You know, I was planning to let this drop after my last post....but not defending my good friends (who MTL is lying about and then using those lies to prop himself with) is just not sitting well with me at all.

I take very little credit for the successes of the club. As the "infoGuy", my role in club leadership was to do as much background/behind-the-scenes work as I could to broadcast the incredible effort people were doing on the real work of running a club: courses (Stan & Sam mainly), with the city (Stan & Beav mainly), with events (Burro Bill) and charity (Ralph). It fit my family schedule well to do this as it was mainly after hours (and during slow periods at work).

I do not believe I have ever before come out online and called someone a liar, and I do so to defend the honor of those I mentioned (and tons of others too).

Although I am sure there was typical entitlement type whining about low payouts in Charlotte (I already addressed our intentional priorities), we were not boycotted as you can see when you look at the events below (of course, you need to know the competitors personally). Everyone can easily see the turnout at the events was well above the "40 or so" MTL says. These are all the PDGA sanctioned events starting before I was on the BOD and extending past my tenure:

Code:
Count	Tier	Tournament
2003		
73	1 Day C	Points Bonanza I - Reedy Creek (Thu)
63	1 Day C	Points Bonanza II - Hornet's Nest (Fri)
68	1 Day B	Points Bonanza III - Renaissance
88	1 Day B	Points Bonanza IV - Kilborne
98	2 Day A	Disc Landing Fall Finale
2004		
74	1 Day C	Points Bonanza I - Reedy Creek (Thu)
67	1 Day C	Points Bonanza II - Hornet's Nest (Fri)
68	1 Day C	Points Bonanza III - Renaissance
80	1 Day C	Points Bonanza IV - Kilborne
118	2 Day A	Disc Landing Fall Finale
2005		
58	1 Day C	Renny Mules
64	1 Day C	Points Bonanza I - Reedy Creek (Thu)
67	1 Day C	Points Bonanza II - Hornet's Nest (Fri)
81	1 Day C	Points Bonanza III - Renaissance
78	1 Day C	Points Bonanza IV - Sugaw Creek
115	2 Day A	Charlotte Open
2006		
90	2 Day B	FriZZak Open
67	1 Day C	Points Bonanza - Reedy Creek (Thu)
71	1 Day C	Points Bonanza - Hornet's Nest (Fri)
67	1 Day C	Points Bonanza - Renaissance PPC
68	1 Day C	Points Bonanza - Sugaw Creek
129	2 Day A	Charlotte Open
2007		
82	2 Day C	Discourse Open
65	1 Day C	Points Bonanza I - Reedy Creek (Thu)
63	1 Day C	Points Bonanza II - Hornet's Nest (Fri)
85	1 Day C	Points Bonanza III - Kilborne
76	1 Day C	Points Bonanza IV - Sugaw Creek
145	2 Day A	Charlotte Open
2008		
150	2 Day A	Carolina Clash
53	1 Day C	Points Bonanza I - Reedy Creek (Thu)
54	1 Day C	Points Bonanza II -Hornets Nest (Fri)
77	1 Day C	Points Bonanza III - Kilborne Park
62	1 Day C	Points Bonanza IV - Sugar Creek Park
18	2 Day XB Pro	US Doubles Championships
46	2 Day XB AM	US Doubles Championships
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  #145  
Old 07-17-2013, 07:28 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
I like this thought process! It does fall apart a little though when you bring in outside sponsorship cash and hand it out to party crashers - who happen to usually be cool guys but are the ones least likely to contribute to the work going into running the party.
.
Man, I wished I had thought up the "cool guys" part when writing my little essay. Though more in the role of the top pros, or at least top regional pros, who we're excited to have show up and bless our party with their presence.
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  #146  
Old 07-17-2013, 08:01 PM
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ohtobediscing ohtobediscing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Ensor View Post
Exactly. Nobody cared about swimming until Phelps came around.
Damn, you just blurt out complete nonsense. Mark Spitz won 7 gold swimming medals at the 1972 Olympics, made swimming competitions instantly popular, and his accomplishment is DIRECTLY responsible for the careers of people like Phelps.
I'd ask you to think before you post, but it doesn't seem possible.

Last edited by ohtobediscing; 07-17-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  #147  
Old 07-17-2013, 08:13 PM
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BigSky BigSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohtobediscing View Post
Damn, you just blurt out complete nonsense. Mark Spitz won 7 gold swimming medals at the 1972 Olympics, made swimming competitions instantly popular, and his accomplishment is DIRECTLY responsible for the careers of people like Phelps.
I'd ask you to think before you post, but it doesn't seem possible.
He has a point.

And 1972 was two generations ago. Say the words "Mark Spitz" to 100 random young (25 and under) people and see how many know who he is. I'm not saying it's not sad, just the way things are.
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  #148  
Old 07-17-2013, 09:00 PM
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ohtobediscing ohtobediscing is offline
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^^^Nope, he doesn't have a point. He said "Nobody cared about swimming until Phelps came around", and that is expressly not true. The swimming competitions have been the MOST popular events in the summer Olympics for those same 2+ decades that you mentioned. He doesn't know who Mark Spitz is, so what? That doesn't make his statement true.

Last edited by ohtobediscing; 07-17-2013 at 09:05 PM.
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  #149  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:23 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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I have tremendous respect for Beave, Sam, Stan, Burro, and crew. Great guys, great friends. I was honored to be asked by this crew to be a course director
for the worlds and have also been asked by them to play a role in the 2015 US Masters.

I also have tremendous respect for people like Keatts, Wit and all others busting their butts for the sport. Charlotte is in a great place right now in the sport and no one can deny that.

And I've seen a tremendous improvement in Charlotte events in the last few years. And I'll stop here.
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  #150  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:27 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
Back on topic here.....not just for MTL, but anyone who finds this sort of endeavor admirable.



Why do you feel travel players deserve to be compensated well by you?
What value do they add that earns them your money (and your sponsors' money)?
What motivates you to do this on their behalf?

When you have answered this, ask each of those questions with "TDs" in place of "travel players".

Why do you feel travel players deserve to be compensated well by you?

Because our sport needs numbers to improve. And great payouts get numbers at events.

What value do they add that earns them your money (and your sponsors' money)?

I don't earn their money. My sponsors have been satisfied with their return on their investment.

What motivates you to do this on their behalf?

Personal reasons that I do not care to discuss publicly.
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