#41  
Old 09-21-2013, 12:54 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by brandocommando9 View Post
Biscoe is wrong they definitely have different plastic on Ching Rocs its not just normal dx, more in between dx and kc pro
Serious question, not trying to be argumentative: Don't you think DX and KC Pro Roc/Aviar plastic overlap, though? The range of plastic that I have purchased as "DX" at the top end is pretty hard and durable. The range of plastic I have purchased as "KC Pro" in Rocs and Aviars at the bottom end is pretty soft and craptastic, to the point that I have thought "I could have just bought a DX disc and saved the $3.00."

So for me I couldn't slot a plastic between DX and KC Pro Roc/Aviar plastic becasue there is no room there. The top of the DX threshold is already a better plastic than the bottom of the KC Pro Roc/Aviar threshold.
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  #42  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:16 PM
Van1 Van1 is offline
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I felt up a Ching Avair two days ago after helping a buddy find his in a vine patch stuck in a tree. Great DX plastic but certainty DX. His has been in his bag for 15+ years...
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  #43  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
Serious question, not trying to be argumentative: Don't you think DX and KC Pro Roc/Aviar plastic overlap, though? The range of plastic that I have purchased as "DX" at the top end is pretty hard and durable. The range of plastic I have purchased as "KC Pro" in Rocs and Aviars at the bottom end is pretty soft and craptastic, to the point that I have thought "I could have just bought a DX disc and saved the $3.00."

So for me I couldn't slot a plastic between DX and KC Pro Roc/Aviar plastic because there is no room there. The top of the DX threshold is already a better plastic than the bottom of the KC Pro Roc/Aviar threshold.
While I think there's generally a difference between DX and Pro, I agree with what was said above. Both plastics have varied so greatly over the years so as to create a sort of continuum that spans across DX and Pro, resulting and a wide variety of feel, texture, durability, stability. So much so that sometimes, other than the stamp, you might never know the difference.

Jay Dub may also have a point: there could be something process oriented that distinguishes Ching Rocs from ordinary DX Rocs. I'm not saying there is, but I could see how the mfg process (specifically the printing if heat is involved) could alter the way the plastic feels or how the disc performs.

Last edited by BogeyNoMore; 09-21-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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  #44  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:27 PM
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lol. Ching.. What a crappy brand.
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  #45  
Old 09-21-2013, 02:25 PM
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I have absolutely no dog in this fight, but wouldn't saying that a change to the plastic blend (not just a glow agent being added) is insignificant be like calling Star Champ because it's Champ plastic with Pro added to it?

Because everyone knows that plastic blend changes over time across all lines, the only valid comparison would be DX and Ching from the same time period. If it's a different blend of plastic from the DX that was being run at that time, how can it really be considered DX?

Has anyone with access to the PDGA board asked Dave about this?
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  #46  
Old 09-21-2013, 02:50 PM
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If you applied that logic to DX, there would be hundreds of separate plastic designations splitting up what we consider DX. The blend changes all the time. The only reason this comes up all the time with the Ching Rocs is becasue you can easily identify them. For most DX discs it's not so easy to tell one run from another. The only thing that is easy to tell that the soft flexible DX TeeBird you just bought that got a ding in one tree hit is not identical to the rock hard DX TeeBird you had in your bag that lasted for three years. What exactly accounts for those differences is known only to Innova. With the Ching discs we can hypothesize that the reason is an additive to help the disc accept the full-color stamp. Just becasue we have that hypothesis, I'm not sure why these have to be categorized as a different plastic when we are OK with those TeeBirds being called the same plastic even though they are clearly different.

DX is a term for a range of plastics. The Ching Rocs fall into that range.

It really shouldn't matter; they are a unique Roc with a flight characteristic unlike other Rocs and the DX they were run in is good DX, plus they have cool stamps. Trying to retroactively claim the plastic was something other than DX just seems like an facebook auction ploy to drive up the prices on them.
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Old 09-21-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
While I think there's generally a difference between DX and Pro, I agree with what was said above. Both plastics have varied so greatly over the years so as to create a sort of continuum that spans across DX and Pro, resulting and a wide variety of feel, texture, durability, stability. So much so that sometimes, other than the stamp, you might never know the difference.

Jay Dub may also have a point: there could be something process oriented that distinguishes Ching Rocs from ordinary DX Rocs. I'm not saying there is, but I could see how the mfg process (specifically the printing if heat is involved) could alter the way the plastic feels or how the disc performs.
I was not saying the process made the material different. DX was being made the same time and it was different. This went on for more than a year and not just one run of Innova discs.

The process variables would change the stiffness/flatness of the discs, not the material or the feel of it beyond the stiffness.

I do believe the quality of the ching plastic was either the same as or slightly better than dx and less than pro.
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  #48  
Old 09-21-2013, 04:32 PM
brandocommando9 brandocommando9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
If you applied that logic to DX, there would be hundreds of separate plastic designations splitting up what we consider DX. The blend changes all the time. The only reason this comes up all the time with the Ching Rocs is becasue you can easily identify them. For most DX discs it's not so easy to tell one run from another. The only thing that is easy to tell that the soft flexible DX TeeBird you just bought that got a ding in one tree hit is not identical to the rock hard DX TeeBird you had in your bag that lasted for three years. What exactly accounts for those differences is known only to Innova. With the Ching discs we can hypothesize that the reason is an additive to help the disc accept the full-color stamp. Just becasue we have that hypothesis, I'm not sure why these have to be categorized as a different plastic when we are OK with those TeeBirds being called the same plastic even though they are clearly different.

DX is a term for a range of plastics. The Ching Rocs fall into that range.

It really shouldn't matter; they are a unique Roc with a flight characteristic unlike other Rocs and the DX they were run in is good DX, plus they have cool stamps. Trying to retroactively claim the plastic was something other than DX just seems like an facebook auction ploy to drive up the prices on them.

I understand what your saying three putt, there is a lot of types of dx, what I was saying is chings are a different dx blend so with your point vs mine were really saying the same thing. Now I feel if your saying they added additives to the chings for the stamping process your agreeing with me. I mean we can back and forth for days but the fact is a 1998 Ching roc IS more durable and over stable than its 1998 dx counterpart whether its an additive or heat that caused it it doesn't matter those two things would be specific to Ching Rocs.
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  #49  
Old 09-21-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandocommando9 View Post
Now I feel if your saying they added additives to the chings for the stamping process your agreeing with me.
That's just a guess, though. I don't know that. You don't know that. All I know for sure is that it was advertised and sold as DX. You can have a theory that it was different somehow, and if you want to believe that and share your theory (that you can't prove) that's fine.

That's a far cry from "Biscoe is wrong." Biscoe was not wrong. He said what we were told when we ordered and sold them; they were DX plastic. IF (and remember the "IF") there was any difference in them from run of the mill DX we were not paying for it, so it must not have been anything that cost Innova a lot to do.

So believe what you like. When we ordered them we were told they were DX. If they had been anything really special in 1998, you would have thought Innova would have called them SE and charged us more for them.
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  #50  
Old 09-21-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Dub View Post
I was not saying the process made the material different. DX was being made the same time and it was different. This went on for more than a year and not just one run of Innova discs.

The process variables would change the stiffness/flatness of the discs, not the material or the feel of it beyond the stiffness.

I do believe the quality of the ching plastic was either the same as or slightly better than dx and less than pro.
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