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  #301  
Old 11-07-2013, 09:59 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Slider View Post
I think we can all say we are cheap people and we don't want to help pay for our professionals. Sorry pros...we don't want to pay increased fees to assist you in your endeavor. The base for disc golf is a poor or low income base and this is who is supporting you with what they have, I don't think this base is going to be able to help you professional men and women.
Not all of us. I wouldn't say any such thing, myself.

What other sport does the regular casual player just give money to be given to the top players?

There is nothing inherent in being able to perform an athletic skill well, that the performer deserves to be paid. That goes for pitching a baseball or shooting a basketball or anything else.

The only value is in its entertainment value. If you can do something so entertaining that hundreds of thousands of people will want to watch, then sponsors will want to pay money to get their name in front of those hundreds of thousands of people, and the players will earn a portion of it. For their entertainment value, not their skill.
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  #302  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:00 PM
Slider Slider is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Officiating, in and of itself, won't make it a serious sport. Or a more serious sport. But it's a good question as to whether it's the "most important next step....". I'd venture to say that there are dozens of things more important; if disc golf ever has enough spectators to bring in serious money, then officiating will be both reasonable, and affordable.
basketball became popular and now they have reffs, football became popular and now they have reffs, most sports that eventually get very popular get some kind of officiating. Name a popular sport that doesn't have officials of some sort?
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  #303  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:02 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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basketball became popular and now they have reffs, football became popular and now they have reffs, most sports that eventually get very popular get some kind of officiating. Name a popular sport that doesn't have officials of some sort?
Notice what you said. They became popular and now have refs. Not that they hired refs, and that made them popular.
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  #304  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay Dub View Post
I believe there would be a follow up question to this.
What can be changed to make the program work?
Unless the experienced, smart people think since they tried once and failed nothing else can work.

An old cliche old people like to say is, "the only time you can't fail is the last time you try".

Officiating is needed to make the sport a serious sport. But is that the most important next step for disc golf?
It might not be the most important, now that you point it out, and what is important is and will always be debatable. I would say it is one important step to get rid of relying on the players as a reff. Officiators would assist in cleaning up the sport, you can get DQ'd for drinking and doing drugs. That would clean up a PDGA even quickly. Unless you want the status quo.

There is also so much controversy on players not calling stuff and the drama that they receive for calling a foot fault...a foot fault, like the Nikko calling one on double g. Really? No one would have said anything if a reff called it and that would be the end.
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  #305  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:05 PM
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I suggest we get rid of the tour that would actually benefit more than u might think
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  #306  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:09 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Regarding refs, we are a participation sport, not a spectator sport. Most participation sports that have referees, the players pay the refs themselves in their entry fees. Softball leagues, for example. We could offer our players the same deal, but I doubt they'd want it.

What would it cost? 18 refs for 18 holes, 4 4-hour rounds, that's 288 hours of work. If they did it for $10 an hour, that's almost $3,000. That's for a fully-officiated tournament, if you can get that low a price. And find 18 people in a town willing to do it.

If you hedge and don't have 18 refs, then you're back to self-officiating, at least for part of the field.

If you have a multi-course event, double it.

Ask the players if they want to pay for that---in increased fees, or decreased payouts---and I'll bet they'll be fine with the current system.
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  #307  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:12 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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......in the meantime, it is very doubtful that having referees will greatly increase spectator interest, thus making sponsorship viable, thus making real money available for our top players.
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  #308  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Regarding refs, we are a participation sport, not a spectator sport. Most participation sports that have referees, the players pay the refs themselves in their entry fees. Softball leagues, for example. We could offer our players the same deal, but I doubt they'd want it.

What would it cost? 18 refs for 18 holes, 4 4-hour rounds, that's 288 hours of work. If they did it for $10 an hour, that's almost $3,000. That's for a fully-officiated tournament, if you can get that low a price. And find 18 people in a town willing to do it.

If you hedge and don't have 18 refs, then you're back to self-officiating, at least for part of the field.

If you have a multi-course event, double it.

Ask the players if they want to pay for that---in increased fees, or decreased payouts---and I'll bet they'll be fine with the current system.
I was thinking that you can start out with less than 18 for starters. say 5 refs at $40 a day...at my leagues they pay $25 a game, so lets say $40 a day for 5 refs would be $200 a day and $400 for a two day. From what I understand they do raise thousands currently for some of the tourneys, and it seems that a lot of the TDs out there want to run a professional tourney...that was Jussie Meresma (sp?) goal to run the most professional tourney out there. Maybe the PDGA can give an option to have refs and they have carblanch on calls and what they call goes. Make it optional...hey I just got $2k from a small firm and that can be used for my refs. optional vs. no option at all. maybe some TD might consider having a ref on the field that even has the ability to DQ a player for misconduct.
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  #309  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:23 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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The solution I'm hoping for, for the self-officiating and related controversies, is a culture change. A handful of top players who will call all the rules; who will be upfront that they're going to call the rules; who will do so matter-of-factly, without a hint of malice; and who will accept calls against them without resentment. Perhaps, once they establish that standard, they'll move the culture.

Don't get me wrong. I'd enjoy it if disc golf grew big enough to generate spectators, sponsorships, and well-paid top players. But if it's ever to happen, I don't think referees will be the reason.
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  #310  
Old 11-07-2013, 10:29 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider View Post
I was thinking that you can start out with less than 18 for starters. say 5 refs at $40 a day...at my leagues they pay $25 a game, so lets say $40 a day for 5 refs would be $200 a day and $400 for a two day. From what I understand they do raise thousands currently for some of the tourneys, and it seems that a lot of the TDs out there want to run a professional tourney...that was Jussie Meresma (sp?) goal to run the most professional tourney out there. Maybe the PDGA can give an option to have refs and they have carblanch on calls and what they call goes. Make it optional...hey I just got $2k from a small firm and that can be used for my refs. optional vs. no option at all. maybe some TD might consider having a ref on the field that even has the ability to DQ a player for misconduct.
TD's do have that option. They can designate officials.

And I favor the option, and greatly favor TDs trying new things, to demonstrate their effectiveness. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

4 officials doesn't change the fact that the sport is self-officiated; they just mean that some violations will get called that wouldn't be called otherwise. If you want to take officiating out of the players' hands, you have to have a full set of officials.

$40 for a full day's effort isn't pay---it's a gratuity. A nice gesture, for sure.

I used to be involved in youth sports and those officials often get paid much more---not for a single game, but a full day's worth of games.

Someone mentioned earlier how hard it can be to get spotters on a few holes. I know how hard it is to get workers for tournaments, even when the work is just spotty during the day and the workers can still play. Volunteer officials could be tough.
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