Technical standards and sustainability

[ilmcgee]

Love to hear Thug's take on this.

 

[rd.bittle]

Throw over em.

 

[PBokor]

The safety issue is potentially real at my local course. It is a busy multi-use park, with plenty of pedestrians and cyclists. Their pathways are almost always clearly visible and played OB, so the danger is minimized for non players, assuming proper player etiquette. Strategic mandos mitigate the danger to players on the course as well.

I worry about the idiot Pokemon collectors wandering the course. Apparently this course is a hot bed for collectors and they have no clue what DG is or how much a disc might hurt, as they wander silently through the woods. Many of our shots are blind with elevation and I have inadvertently thrown into them without realizing they were present more than a few times.

Signage probably absolves me of liability, but I would still feel really bad if I hit a Pokemon collector or dog walker who was off the marked trail.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I don't see this as that big of a deal. As the article and numerous people have said most safety concerns can be minimized by good course development even in a heavily trafficked area. My home course is La Mirada in LA and it is a small regional park with lots of people and they still managed to design two really nice 18 hole courses. If anything I think more effect should be placed on warning signs.

If you're not an ******* or an idiot you should be able to wait for someone to move out of the way or run ahead and politely ask them to move out of the way for a moment, or point them in the direction of a safer area to picnic. I do agree that joggers and bike riders can be a problem, especially if they're cutting through the park and not following trails or walkways, and for that reason all entrances to the park should include signs to alert them to the hazard.

 

[slowplastic]

The safety issue is potentially real at my local course. It is a busy multi-use park, with plenty of pedestrians and cyclists. Their pathways are almost always clearly visible and played OB, so the danger is minimized for non players, assuming proper player etiquette. Strategic mandos mitigate the danger to players on the course as well.

I worry about the idiot Pokemon collectors wandering the course. Apparently this course is a hot bed for collectors and they have no clue what DG is or how much a disc might hurt, as they wander silently through the woods. Many of our shots are blind with elevation and I have inadvertently thrown into them without realizing they were present more than a few times.

Signage probably absolves me of liability, but I would still feel really bad if I hit a Pokemon collector or dog walker who was off the marked trail.

I played a course that was full of paths and pedestrians for quite some time...eventually we played it so if someone was hit you would take a 2 stroke penalty. Not that people would get hit...it's more that it gave the thrower a good mind set to wait until everything was 100% clear and nobody would pressure them to "play on" too fast.

 

[Consult20]

This is the second article I've seen about a pedestrian losing an eye from getting hit on a disc golf course. As I recall, the other was a woman sitting on some bleachers nearby. Even though they were pedestrians, it could just as easily happen to players. It seems like everyone I know who plays has stories about getting hit by discs. It seems it's just part of the risk of playing, I'm not sure there is a good solution other than being as aware as possible and keeping your head on a swivel.

 

[DG_player]

If you're not an ******* or an idiot you should be able to wait for someone to move out of the way or run ahead and politely ask them to move out of the way for a moment, or point them in the direction of a safer area to picnic.

Idiots and ******** are the biggest problem. There really is no reason you should ever hit a non-player unless you're being an idiot or an *******. My home course is in a multi-use park and it's not uncommon to have to wait a fair bit for other park users to clear. However I can't even begin to count the number of times I have seen players wantonly throw past/through/near other park users. It's not just newbies either, oftentimes it's skilled players that should know better.

All it will take is one park to be successfully sued and the insurance companies to realize DG courses in multi-use parks are a big risk. Once that happens, I doubt there will be many parks that think the increased premiums are worth it.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Yeah I heard also that DaveD and friends are looking to tweak molds that have too much cutting power into more blunt nosed. Wraith was one they were throwing around. Reliable source. (I actually saw one of the Wraith B testers)

In other commentary:

-no you are never free from liability no matter what or how numerous the signage.
-child getting killed by a disc? never going to happen, unless direct hit from a pro at close range and said child was a newborn infant or some other wild fringe scenario like that.not saying that kids need to get hit by discs but the fatality comment keeps popping up in these discussions and I find it absurd. if the myth busters were still around they should do one on can you kill a person by throwing a 175g disc golf disc?

 

[roggenb3]

^I absolutely believe a disc could kill someone. If a disc can obliterate somone's eye, it can break a childs neck.

And really, I could see Elver being the place it happens. Small children run unattended through that course all the time.

 

[Consult20]

^I absolutely believe a disc could kill someone. If a disc can obliterate somone's eye, it can break a childs neck.

And really, I could see Elver being the place it happens. Small children run unattended through that course all the time.

So true about Elver, it really is a disaster waiting to happen. It's like letting little kids run around in front of the tee areas at Yaraha Hills.

 

[SD86]

^I absolutely believe a disc could kill someone. If a disc can obliterate somone's eye, it can break a childs neck.

And really, I could see Elver being the place it happens. Small children run unattended through that course all the time.

Or Wills Park north of Atlanta. The course winds through a park. One teebox throws almost right at a pavilion where people are gathering (some discs will land on the pavilion roof). The course goes very near playground equipment as well as parking lots, and children are running around all the time. It's only a matter of time before a serious injury occurs.

 

[pjhayes7]

Or Wills Park north of Atlanta. The course winds through a park. One teebox throws almost right at a pavilion where people are gathering (some discs will land on the pavilion roof). The course goes very near playground equipment as well as parking lots, and children are running around all the time. It's only a matter of time before a serious injury occurs.

I love playing Wills, but I cannot believe someone has not gotten hurt there.

 

[loki the trickster]

I think most disc golfers have in some way, shape or form brought this up. That is that the rim width should be looked at. Generally speaking new or less skilled throwers that tend to throw the widest rimed disc off the tee for 250-300ft holes using speed over skill. Now this is not all bad untill their mentality of "i won't hit them, i cant throw that far." or "i am not aiming over there so those people will be fine." get someone hurt.

Lets not forget a disc with a smaller rim wont do as much damage to trees, will allow courses to remain more relevant while disc golf only plots of land are soursed out and finally will make pro discgolf a bit more exciting.

Now to discuss the point of the cats out of the bag so you cant get rid of the ones that dont fit... you dont really need to. If they are no longer produced & sold or used by professionals after time and lost discs they will slowly vanish.

 

[ISUME]

Generally speaking, public golf courses aren't set up in the direct vicinity of playgrounds, baseball fields, basketball courts, etc.

Chances of a child running onto a ball golf fairway are slim compared to public disc golf courses.

I was more referring to hitting other golfers, but some golf courses exist that have bike paths or neighborhoods within range of terrible shots.

 

[hugheshilton]

I do think it's quite possible to reduce the rim widths or sharpness of discs if the PDGA really wanted to do that. I think there would probably be a transition period of a couple years with several phases. In the first phase, they might just stop approving sharper/wider rimmed discs, but all existing molds remained legal for tournament play or sale. Then in the the second phase they might require disc companies to stop selling discs from sharper/wider rimmed molds as "PDGA certified", but discs that had been made and sold before would still be legal for tournament play. Then in the last phase they would make any sharper/wider rimmed disc illegal for tournament play. I think a transition plan like that would allow disc companies and players plenty of time to make the transition, especially if they warned everyone a season in advance of actually starting the transition.

Now, all that being said, I don't personally think making discs less sharp or wide-rimmed would make all that much difference to injuries. I mean, Paul McBeth can throw a Thunderbird 500 feet. Do you really think that getting hit by his Thunderbird at 200 feet is going to be that much different than being hit by his Destroyer at 200 feet? The Thunderbird might have slowed down just slightly more than the Destroyer but it's still going to be moving very fast. Even the sharpest discs are already fairly blunt at the speed they're flying. When you get hit at speed with a disc, the disc doesn't break your skin and stick into you, which is the fear for sharp objects. Getting hit is basically a blunt trauma. And I don't think you could make discs blunt enough NOT to take out someone's eye if they hit the person in just the right way without taking us back 25 years in flight performance. Certainly a Thunderbird or even a Teebird could take out an eye.

 

[Moose33]

Or Wills Park north of Atlanta. The course winds through a park. One teebox throws almost right at a pavilion where people are gathering (some discs will land on the pavilion roof). The course goes very near playground equipment as well as parking lots, and children are running around all the time. It's only a matter of time before a serious injury occurs.

Wills is really fun, but I only play it in winter for this reason. Really afraid that I could hurt someone there one several holes.

To be fair it's GA oldest course that still exists, to my knowledge. But man that layout is scary.

I'll usually play East Roswell when that way. At least the pedestrians are safe from most of my errant shots.

It seems that older courses are often the ones that have these issues. Back when a Viper was the fastest disc this sort of thing wasn't a big deal. Now that we have discs that allow newer players to throw 300+ with minimal control it does bring up some issues.

 

[Flick Maniac]

^I absolutely believe a disc could kill someone. If a disc can obliterate somone's eye, it can break a childs neck.

And really, I could see Elver being the place it happens. Small children run unattended through that course all the time.

Eye vs. neck. Two very different parts of the body. Even the eye is very resitant. But break a neck? No way.

Super dangerous dg course design is of course super dangerous and stupid regardless if the result will be a bruise, welt, some shedded blood and not a death. Yet even further, it is always the throwers responsibility. I know a few courses where it says putters/midranges only, but of course you cant force stupid people.

 

[pjhayes7]

Generally speaking, public golf courses aren't set up in the direct vicinity of playgrounds, baseball fields, basketball courts, etc.

Chances of a child running onto a ball golf fairway are slim compared to public disc golf courses.

I think that comment was more about the danger to other players of the course. I used to work at a ball golf course where players got hit all the time. A couple of fairways ran parallel to a busy road and cars would get hit probably once or twice a month. The nets to protect the road were never high enough and I don't think anyone ever got their windshield replaced by the course, but I can't be sure of that.

The point is, often disc golf courses are designed to fit in what little space is available. The danger is to other players, who are aware of the dangers and their surroundings, but the design of the course makes someone being hit inevitable. I love my home course, but there is a spot where four holes converge that is very dangerous. I know this and there are times i have gotten distracted and almost gotten hit. Another place on the course my buddy was hit in the head by a tee shot from the previous hole while we were standing on the teebox ourselves. The throw was not a particularly bad one, but the thrower may have not even known we were there b/c where we were standing is blocked from view, but not disc flight.

I am not sure I have a solution. Although, part of the problem is the demand for courses to be 18 holes. I know of a particular course in my area I will never go back to b/c of how dangerous it is. Mostly because an 18 hole course was squeezed into the space where a 9 hole should go. I would rather see a well laid out 13 hole course than a poor 18.

 

[DG_player]

Now, all that being said, I don't personally think making discs less sharp or wide-rimmed would make all that much difference to injuries. I mean, Paul McBeth can throw a Thunderbird 500 feet. Do you really think that getting hit by his Thunderbird at 200 feet is going to be that much different than being hit by his Destroyer at 200 feet? The Thunderbird might have slowed down just slightly more than the Destroyer but it's still going to be moving very fast. Even the sharpest discs are already fairly blunt at the speed they're flying. When you get hit at speed with a disc, the disc doesn't break your skin and stick into you, which is the fear for sharp objects. Getting hit is basically a blunt trauma. And I don't think you could make discs blunt enough NOT to take out someone's eye if they hit the person in just the right way without taking us back 25 years in flight performance. Certainly a Thunderbird or even a Teebird could take out an eye.

I'd have to agree. 175g of hard plastic is still 175g of hard plastic. I can't see making the rim 1/32 of an inch blunter or shrinking the rim a bit is going to make much difference. Unless you're talking dialing discs back 20 years or so, I think any serious safety gains are going to be in the area of course design.

 

[lyleoross]

I wanted to post a different approach to this discussion. While I think it is great of the PDGA to be proactive on this, and I think the best approach is signage, I think the problem per say is overblown. I do think it's wise of us to stay on top of the issue so that if something ever comes up we look like we had already considered the problem.

I live in Houston, and two to four kids in the state of Texas die from being shot in the chest with a pellet gun, every year. The number of people who shoot real guns in the woods and accidentally cap real people is not one every few years, it's dozens every year. The number of people that are seriously injured from thrown rocks, items of fruit, boomerangs, balls (all varieties) and other toys, is dozens a day. Discs aren't even on the radar in terms of such things. You can eliminate such injuries, but only if we bubble wrap everyone before we send them outside.

Accidents happen. The article posted above about the lost eye is horrific. It was also written excellently to drive home the tragedy and to give specifics on who was at fault (not some random idiot, but that Boss disc, and Innova) for a reason. Pointing out someone did something stupid, end of story. Implying that Innova, a company, is doing something dangerous and bad has long term traction. In other words, she didn't go after the idiot who threw the disc and is responsible, she went after someone she wanted to sue, and a rational judge tossed her suit. Wonder who she would have sued if a branch fell and hit him? The parks department? Forestry service?

People run over people at a fairly high rate in this country. Seventy-one people have died in downtown Houston from trying to walk over cars this year alone. No one says, "Fords are dangerous!" They are, but the problem is the yokel behind the wheel, and dare I say it, proper regulations and signage that make it clear where to walk and drive.

The proper course of action is to be proactive, advocate for signs and for courses that are low hiker, walker and park player interactive. Especially for PDGA top tier events. Doing that is good for the sport, shows just how much we care - and we do - and is what responsible adults do.