The Private DG Course Model

[Treeplant]

Curious as to whether anyone's ever written a detailed post/PDF/book/whatever on the theory behind successfully designing/running a private DG course.

My biggest pet peeve with the sport is the lack of dedicated, private courses. A lot of times playing in the public parks in the area is great, but at other times dealing with the crowds of general public and painfully slow rec players can make for some pretty frustrating rounds.

From what I've seen here in Canada at least, the sport is a long ways away from being able to support truly profitable private courses. The few I've seen have been labours of love where the owners are lucky to scrape $5 a day out of the average disc golfer.

Are there larger markets where private courses can operate as a true business?

I'm excluding hybrid ball golf/disc golf courses here, I'm talking purely disc golf courses. As a ball golfer first, I hate the hybrid ball/disc golf model, I think it bastardizes both games, though I realize a lot of people disagree with me on that (and good for them, I wish I could enjoy those courses more).

And by "operate as a true business", I'm envisioning a model that can afford at least one or two salaried people at market wages (not paid under the counter) plus seasonal staff and a ROI for the business itself and the ability to purchase/maintain a basic equipment fleet (mowers, vehicle, irrigation etc.)

 

[Moose33]

There are some awesome private courses out there, but I bet few of them are truly self sustaining.

DavidSauls on here has a course that is highly rated and could probably comment.

Of the ones that I have been to, I think Horning Hideout with the money they also make from events, camping and fishing as well as disc golf probably breaks even. Rolling Ridge has been so busy when I've been there that it is possible as well though in their remote location it may not be.

I don't know if Flip City is, it was very busy when I went but is so far away from a major city is hard to tell.

Honestly I think you have to have another draw to turn a profit and doubt anyone is making a living running a course.

It's something I'd love to do one day, but would want to be in a place where I wouldn't need the income to run it before opening one.

 

[DavidSauls]

The closest contenders might be:

The state of Maine, where pay-to-play private courses are the norm.

Blue Ribbon Pines, which the rumor mill says is doing pretty well.

Morley Field, which I think is a public park leased to a vendor, who's made a living at it for decades.

When asking about profitability, the first question would be, which costs are you including, or which are covered elsewhere? Because if you include the whole package, which includes the land costs, I have my doubts that it's event possible. Land near enough disc golfers is terribly expensive; elsewhere, there aren't enough customers.

 

[Mando]

Curious as to whether anyone's ever written a detailed post/PDF/book/whatever on the theory behind successfully designing/running a private DG course.

My biggest pet peeve with the sport is the lack of dedicated, private courses. A lot of times playing in the public parks in the area is great, but at other times dealing with the crowds of general public and painfully slow rec players can make for some pretty frustrating rounds.

From what I've seen here in Canada at least, the sport is a long ways away from being able to support truly profitable private courses. The few I've seen have been labours of love where the owners are lucky to scrape $5 a day out of the average disc golfer.

Are there larger markets where private courses can operate as a true business?

I'm excluding hybrid ball golf/disc golf courses here, I'm talking purely disc golf courses. As a ball golfer first, I hate the hybrid ball/disc golf model, I think it bastardizes both games, though I realize a lot of people disagree with me on that (and good for them, I wish I could enjoy those courses more).

And by "operate as a true business", I'm envisioning a model that can afford at least one or two salaried people at market wages (not paid under the counter) plus seasonal staff and a ROI for the business itself and the ability to purchase/maintain a basic equipment fleet (mowers, vehicle, irrigation etc.)

The only place this could happen are places like Maine, where people are used to pay for play or places with a lot of nearby population.

 

[Moose33]

I'd be really interested to see if in a bigger metro that still has a fair bit of land that isn't exorbitant nearby how a top class p2p could do. A place like Atlanta, Birmingham, Orlando where you wouldn't have to close for the winter could be interesting.

DavidSauls- if Stoney Hill was say in the burbs of a reasonably big town like Atlanta or Charlotte, even Chattanooga or similar do you think it would pay for itself?

 

[Cgkdisc]

The first format that I suspect could be profitable in higher population areas is a Tiki course (see Blockhouse) added to an existing facility that has other things going on like a bar, restaurant, go carts, batting cages, ball miniature golf, etc. If I were an entrepreneur looking to try something in the disc golf arena, Tiki would be it. You have a small property footprint (cost/taxes), existing infrastructure, metro location, night play even more exciting with LED lighting, and most importantly, a much broader portion of the population who could instantly play well with lids or Super Class discs.

 

[DavidSauls]

DavidSauls- if Stoney Hill was say in the burbs of a reasonably big town like Atlanta or Charlotte, even Chattanooga or similar do you think it would pay for itself?

I doubt it, but it depends on a whole lot of qualifications.

I don't see how it's possible if that includes the cost of the land, and whatever buildings are constructed (pro shop, etc.). I can't imagine what land must cost, close enough to Atlanta.

Plus staffing?

Few people will drive 30-45 minutes to play it now, when it's donation-only; and those that do, don't do it often. So think about some figures:

If you had 50 players a day, paying $10 each, that's $182,500 per year in revenue. That would pay the owner decently, and a staff of 1 or 2 cheaply, and equipment and other expenses. But $10 is a lot; some people will pay, but how many?

Assume players, on average, play it once a week. Some would play a few times a week, some only once a month. So you need 350 such players, willing to pay $10 on a regular basis. That's a lot of people, in a sport full of cheapskates.

And that's an average of 50 a day. More on good days, because bad weather days, even in the south, would be far less.

That's before a million dollars for land, and cost of buildings, and.....

 

[DavidSauls]

Brackett's Bluff would be a good place to ask, about a course near a big disc golf metro area (Charlotte), as to their income and expenses.

 

[Mando]

Sugaree averages 50 plays per month for a six month season at 10/day...
I'm getting filthy rich off of disc golf.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm getting filthy, myself.

 

[InnocentCrook]

I don't see it as being at all feasible for all the reasons already mentioned.

Around Cincy, land alone will run you between $2,000 and $5,000 per acre and that's a minimum of probably 40 minutes outside the city.

Finding a piece of land large enough for a course is getting increasingly more difficult as all the best pieces have already been gobbled up by developers and all the "McMansion" builders.

Tractors, mowers, equipment are not cheap (to buy, operate, or repair). Heck, a new front tire for my sub-compact tractor is about $100 and that's just about the smallest tractor tire out there.

 

[roggenb3]

Honestly I think you have to have another draw to turn a profit and doubt anyone is making a living running a course.

Yup, the course has to be a labor of love funded by something else.

That's part of the reason that I'm so impressed with many private courses - the amount of effort and money put into them for getting diddly in return.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I've spoken about this topic very briefly in other threads and have 'dreamed' about it for years and I think there are 2 basic paths for a project, like the one suggested, to be financially feasible.

1. A private country club venture or real estate development project (think golf course community).
2. A hybrid type of recreation/nature facility; think corporate retreat type of place.

The point is that without massive up-front capital (or equivalent leverage), one must have multiple income sources to help sustain the project (think ski resort/disc facilities).

Where I live, Charlotte, the latter idea is definitely out, as the local ethos is entrenched and largely geared toward 'free' public facilities. This ethos has been wonderful for generating interest in the sport, but in some ways undercuts possibilities like the topic of this thread. I have always felt that disc golfers should be conditioned to expect to directly pay for use of the facility.

Silly as it may seem, a likely path may just be to get a personality like Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg addicted to disc golf...

 

[sidewinder22]

Sugaree averages 50 plays per month for a six month season at 10/day...
I'm getting filthy rich off of disc golf.

Well your name is Rich and I gave you some beer money this weekend.

 

[Mando]

Well your name is Rich and I gave you some beer money this weekend.

Yep. That's really all a private disc golf course owner can hope to do;break even on the beer consumed...wish I had a brewery.

 

[kerplunk]

I think the Flying Armadillo in San Marcos is going to make a run at it. The reason I think they may be successful is their short course, which is mini-golf but for disc golf. There is a large university in San Marcos (Texas State, formerly known as Southwest Texas), so I think if they can convince organizations (fraternities, clubs, etc.) to have events there they could turn a decent profit eventually. I even think they could make a decent business just on the students, if it starts to catch on.

I also think alcohol sales are pretty much a must to turn a decent profit.

 

[eegor]

I've only played three pay to play courses.

Selah Ranch is a working ranch and a luxury inn and retreat. They also rent out cabins and have a camping area. Disc golf helps attract people to rent accommodations on site. Although the courses are well kept, it's far from the reason Selah Ranch is profitable.

Shawshank is a labor of love. No way he makes a profit from the course. The fees are to help pay for the upkeep. God bless him.

Spring Valley DGC is a ball golf course that uses the "off the course" rough and a couple of mixed use fairways. More greens fees on property they maintain anyway. They also have a pretty nice pro shop with a good selection of discs. Extra income from an existing golf course without a huge cost of installation. I'd bet they sell more total dollars in discs than golf clubs in the pro shop.

 

[sjberry2017]

I'd be really interested to see if in a bigger metro that still has a fair bit of land that isn't exorbitant nearby how a top class p2p could do. A place like Atlanta, Birmingham, Orlando where you wouldn't have to close for the winter could be interesting.

Speaking of Atlanta, I wonder if North Georgia Canopy Tours could qualify? They have a lot more than just disc golf but their course is supposedly awesome (I gotta make the trek out there next semester), and they don't really have a lot of interference between the course and other things. They do have ziplines etc so it isn't a standalone course itself, but I've got to imagine they make enough off disc golf to have justified the course.

 

[Moose33]

Speaking of Atlanta, I wonder if North Georgia Canopy Tours could qualify? They have a lot more than just disc golf but their course is supposedly awesome (I gotta make the trek out there next semester), and they don't really have a lot of interference between the course and other things. They do have ziplines etc so it isn't a standalone course itself, but I've got to imagine they make enough off disc golf to have justified the course.

It's probably about 20% or less of their income, but it's a super cool piece of property. Passionate guys too.

 

[elmexdela]

Blue ribbon is making "Good money" (well for what the hobby provides). They also have lures of league play a few days a week. Sat and Sundays are awful busy, with long waiting time.

VQ although having a slightly high admission price, does not compare in quality and quantity. The course just falls short all around.

Thats all Ill cover for MN, even though there is plenty more around. Im not trying to type paragraphs and each were heavily condensed.

Most likely- its a losing game.