Fort Myers Beach, FL

Bay Oaks DGC

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1.415(based on 27 reviews)
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0 0
crabfoot
Experience: 4.8 years 198 played 5 reviews
0.50 star(s)

Not worth the effort 2+ years

Reviewed: Played on:Nov 25, 2019 Played the course:once

Pros:

None

Cons:

Tees are poorly marked or not marked at all. Baskets in the area of the school are not marked. Hole 6, throwing over a parking lot, is unacceptable.

Other Thoughts:

The course was worse than I expected after reading previous reviews.
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7 0
wellsbranch250
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Experience: 10.1 years 652 played 629 reviews
0.50 star(s)

Stay At The Beach 2+ years

Reviewed: Played on:Aug 20, 2017 Played the course:once

Pros:

(0.692 Rating) A course littered with issues. Vacationers are best advised to stay at the beach and toss a Frisbee around.
- ACEABILITY - A handful of short aceable holes. If a skilled player ran 50 rounds here, I'm sure they'd have 1 or 2 aces.
- COURSE MAP ON DGCR - Print the map or download it to your phone (see cons, Navigation)
- RESTROOM - Although not related to disc golf, there are nice restrooms and a drinking fountain on site.
- HOLE 18 - The one decent shot out here. A 200 foot water clear. Circle 3 for me. I hit the bank and watched it trickle into the water slow motion style.
- QUICK PLAY - It took me 45 minutes to complete this one solo. I figure a group of four should have no problem completing a round in under two hours if the other park amenities are not in use.

Cons:

Bay Oaks has scores of major issues.
- SAFETY HAZARDS - The course is full of shots where property and people can come in the path of fire. Hole (4) I seriously considered skipping as I had to throw over a parked van. On holes (9, 10 and 14) a school comes into play. On (7 and 17) the line to the basket literally goes through the center of a playground area. These are just the worst examples as there are many other moderate hazard examples as well. Only hole (1) avoided property and people, although I question why a picnic table was located 40 feet in front of the basket.
- BASKET AND TEE SEPARATION - Numerous tees are located within 30 feet of the prior basket.
- NAVIGATION - With a printed course map in hand, navigation is doable. However, if you show up here without a map, it would be impossible to follow the layout on your first go around. A few baskets are marked and a few are used twice. The tees are unmarked in most instances and there are no directional cues out here. So download the map or print it out, you'll need it.
- LAYOUT FLOW - Epic fail. If there is more than one group out here you'll need to send scouts out to direct flow. 4 baskets are reused. Fairways are reused and cross. Other park amenities are in play. Thankfully, I got an empty course and an empty park for my entire round.
- CHARACTER - Bay Oaks lacks just about all of the amenities and extras that you'd see on an established course. No benches, no signage (except hole 1), no course map posting, no practice basket, no multi tees and no multi baskets. The four reused baskets are (6/17, 8/16, 9/14 and 10/14). Most of the tees are out in the elements. Baskets are rusting, although they still catch well.
- TEES - Horrible. Most are natural. Some of the natural ones have a 4x4 tee line tripping hazard, but other are without any defined line. A few tees utilize existing sidewalks or asphalt paths and roads, which weren't too bad.
- NATURAL BEAUTY - I haven't rated many courses lower than Bay Oaks. Lots of manmade structures in view, including fences, buildings, shelters, sheds and playgrounds. The tree and shrub coverage is minimal on site except along the north boundary.
- LACK OF CHALLENGE - Unless there's loads of OB that I'm not aware of, shooting well under should be achievable by most skilled players. Shaping shots is only required on a few holes and the overall shortness will produce numerous birdie opportunities.
- ELEVATION - Like most south Florida courses, this one is flat. No more than a couple feet of change on any one hole. If you are looking for elevation, check out Estero.
- UNIQUENESS - In addition to no elevation, the overall variety is well below average. No tunnel plays, or pocket shots unless you count chain link fences as the boundary element. Most baskets are poorly guarded if at all. All par 3s although the distance variation wasn't too bad, 150 - 450 feet. One dogleg shot on (14) with the tennis court used as a mando. One water clear shot on hole (18) which was a nice way to end this dissatisfying layout.

Other Thoughts:

Not a good disc golf experience and my lowest rated 18 hole disc golf course I've played to date (102, 18-hole courses played) The course should be redesigned to be 9 or 12 holes. There just isn't enough room for 18 here.
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1 0
cliffelam
Experience: 1 played 1 reviews
1.50 star(s)

Buggy and short 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 30, 2017 Played the course:once

Pros:

Short holes - should be able to throw a lot of pars and Eagles should abound.

If the mosquitos don't carry you off.

Cons:

Course has significantly deteriorated - most course markers destroyed, tee boxes over-run with grass etc. So a lot of guessing where to throw from.

Other Thoughts:

We played on an empty day and it was fine - but if there was a basketball game going or people playing tennis - forget it.

Also, some holes on school property, so during school days 4-6 holes are off limits.
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1 2
t97pete
Experience: 16.8 years 35 played 5 reviews
1.00 star(s)

Course unavailable 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Apr 30, 2016 Played the course:once

Pros:

none

Cons:

I went to the location from DG Review, no course to be found. Maybe the course does exist but a new sign needs to be installed so that it can found.

Other Thoughts:

Based on some of the other reviews that might be a good thing. Best not to have courses where people that are not playing might be hit by a disc.
Bummer it was not there, I was hoping to play a few of the holes, I was planning on skipping the holes that were too close to people or cars.
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7 2
reichmusic
Experience: 9.8 years 13 played 10 reviews
0.00 star(s)

2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jan 11, 2016 Played the course:once

Pros:

Sorry- can't rate this one good at all

Cons:

Course is in a rec area with , playgrounds, walking paths, and parking lots.

This course needs to be pulled unfortunately.


It is very dangerous for park goers. Only played 1-7 17-18 because 8-16 is on a school campus that can't be played while in session.

Dented a couple cars by accident.

It's too bad because It has the potential to be a nice place but- not big enough for multiuse. You can't have a tee in a parking lot with spray paint line and a number- going straight over a playground to a basket right near a tennis court. Too much bad can happen
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10 0
reposado
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Experience: 12.7 years 278 played 273 reviews
0.50 star(s)

2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 9, 2015 Played the course:once

Pros:

Great location for those spending some time at the beach. A big open field offers chances to throw unconstructed drives.

Cons:

The holes either play through non course activities, equipment or are open chucks back and forth across a field. The first seven holes, and the last two, play around the rec center. This section includes: a hole that plays directly through a playground, a hole in which two sheds have been placed directly in front of the basket, a hole which plays in a narrow strip between woods and tennis court with basket around the corner of the court, a hole which plays over one fence and parking area and around additional sheds, a hole that throws back across that parking area to a basket just in front of the rec center, etc. The stretch of holes from 8-17 is just an open field with a basketball court. Throw across diagonally, than along the north edge, then the east edge, then diagonally the other way. It's not great.
Perhaps beginners might have fun here, but these are exactly the people you wouldn't want throwing around the kind of obstacles that pervade the first half of the course. Damage will be done to something. It also ends with exactly the kind of hole that beginners love, a 180 foot water carry.
And beginners will struggle to figure out where to throw. You absolutely need the map and some navigation skills.

Other Thoughts:

Not recommended. That said, I did enjoy the 18th hole which is a manageable water carry to a 200-foot basket. Pretty safe in the vicinity and it's probably more fun to just throw a bunch of discs across the water trying to ace it than to play the rest of the course.
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14 0
RussMB
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Premium Member
Experience: 19.4 years 131 played 110 reviews
2.00 star(s)

Fort Myers Beach 2+ years

Reviewed: Updated: Played on:Aug 25, 2012 Played the course:once

Pros:

• Beautiful Recreation Park; very clean and well taken care of
• Fairways: Mixed Strategic Doglegs, Open air shots, and one water carry
• Teepads:a wooded 2x4 buried on its side/painted on sidewalk/Natural tee that you'll have to guesstimate using the map
• Maps available at the clubhouse near 1 tee, next to the front door.
• Great for beginners, rec players, and those vacationing on Ft Myers Beach
• Open field shots, Dog legs, shot shaping on various lines, and turn over shots.
• Can be played as a nine hole course during the times when half the park is closed.
• Other Activities available at the park as well. Playground, Soccer, Basketball, Baseball, Kayak rentals.

Cons:

• Subject to Park goer interactions
• Plays to close to other activities, a playground, a soccer field and a fenced off area of the neighboring school.
• Some tees aren't there . You'll have to make your own teepad.
• If other activities are going on, you may have to make your own teepad
• 2/3rds of the course share a basket
• Plays across other activities in the park (Throws across a basketball court)
• You'll have to throw around parked cars
• There is a funky sulfer smell emanating from the marsh in the woods.
• If school is in session, most of the back 9 (8-16) section will be locked down and off limits. Leaving 17 & 18 to cap off a 9 hole course during the closed times.

Other Thoughts:

If you happen to be staying in or near Ft Myers Beach, then it's going to be a pleasant course to play. I didn't hate it, as a matter of fact, I found myself having a good time here. Bay Oaks falls into the "It is what it is" category. It's not easily accessed if you are traveling down I-75. On top of that, timing is everything. It's only open when school is out, and if tourist season is in full swing, then expect a lot of traffic congestion on the way to the park. We played here the day before a Hurricane in the off season, so the town was empty, but the park was still pretty active. Imagine what it's like on a normal day.

I did have fun here, but there was way too much park interaction to play around. I don't look favorably about throwing near a playground, and you play near one twice. Also, shot shaping through a parking lot of vans and employee cars is more than nerve racking. Is it worth the drive? Nope! It is a very long drive to play here, and that doesn't include the beach traffic. This course is for the person that lives or is staying in Ft Myers Beach. If you are looking to road trip here so you can add it to your "Played List", then pay attention to the times when will be playing here. If it's too busy, then it may not be worth the drive and/or the frustration.
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10 0
thrembo
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Premium Member
Experience: 48.8 years 242 played 194 reviews
1.00 star(s)

Urban Warfare Course 2+ years

Reviewed: Updated: Played on:Aug 25, 2012 Played the course:2-4 times

Pros:

+ Located in the Ft Myers Beach area, Which is good if you live there, or are vacationing in the area and can't get to any of the areas better courses.

+ It has good baskets.

+ The tees are mostly grass marked with a 4x4 board set in the ground or marked out on the pavement. Most of the tees are also marked with a metal post, and there are tee signs to aid with navigation.

+ Course maps are available at the main park building. I highly advise getting one.

+ There is a variety of shot types, with several holes offering multiple flight paths.

+ The park was litter free and well maintained.

+ Friendly locals.

Cons:

- The course is tight, for the most part, and plays over and around Basketball, Baseball, Tennis, playground, park buildings, sidewalks, roads, and parking lots, intentionally I believe, which makes for a very interesting round of disc golf. Constant attention must be paid to avoid hitting other park users, their cars, the buildings etc.

- Half of the course is only playable when the nearby school is not in session.

- Some baskets are used for two holes.

- Some tee areas are hard to find and/or missing. The tee signs do help though.

- The park had a strong odor about it (like manure) mostly around the perimeter.

Other Thoughts:

After hearing all of the horror stories about this course, I finally decided to make the drive down and play it, and have to admit it was better than I expected.

It did have a kind of urban warfare feel to it, with all of the obstacles, but with care, a fun round of golf can be had here.
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1 5
motomann250
Experience: 18.8 years 1 played 1 reviews
0.50 star(s)

HORRIBLE!! 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 10, 2012 Played the course:once

Pros:

There are none... ok maybe the park its in is well maintained and nice.

Cons:

It seems like whoever designed this course had never played disc golf a day in there life. Or maybe I'm just used to playing in ohio, NC, and kentucky. The only disc needed on this course is your putter. I may go back, when my kids are old enough and need a super simple beginners course.
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4 0
mykeg44
Silver level trusted reviewer
Experience: 14.8 years 72 played 45 reviews
1.50 star(s)

2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 30, 2012 Played the course:once

Pros:

Bay Oaks is an interesting course with a layout you're not likely to see in too many other places.

On the positive side, the park itself was very well manicured when I played. The baskets were all in good shape and easy to spot. While navigation is not always clear, the baskets are aligned in a logical order, so you can figure things out for yourself without much difficulty.

I doubt this course sees a lot of traffic, so you should be able to play at your own pace.

Variety is pretty good here. There are a couple opportunities to use your driver, and various obstacles force you to shape your lines carefully.

#18 is a pretty cool water hazard shot to a basket protected by some hedges.

Cons:

The layout here is hilariously dangerous, and the majority of holes are only playable when nobody else is around. It was a ghost town when I played (weekday evening in late May) so maybe this is the case often. Tee shots go around a tennis court, right next to a playground, two shots over a parking lot, directly over a basketball court, and a couple over sidewalks. Aside from possibly endagering non-DGers on basically every tee shot, these obstacles can beat up your discs pretty quickly.

I found tee signs on only a couple holes, and you're pretty much on your own for navigation since there are no teeboxes. Little wood plans in the ground serve as a makrer, but these can be hard to find. As I mentioned in the Pros, you can see the next pin from almost every basket, so it's not impossible to figure it out for yourself.

Other Thoughts:

If you're on the island you're probably there for reasons other than disc golf, but it's cool to have the option of packing up early at the beach and discing.

Despite the low rating, it's worth checking out if you have the time, if for nothing else than the novelty of the layout. But again, this place is most likely unplayable if you go when other areas of the park are in use. Check it out with that caveat in mind.
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2 0
parTake30
Experience: 12.8 years 103 played 13 reviews
2.50 star(s)

2+ years

Reviewed: Played on:Nov 16, 2011 Played the course:2-4 times

Pros:

a pretty fun course, located in a nice park across the street from fort myers beach. theres a decent array of hole layouts, with open long shots, to shorter obstructed shots.

Cons:

there are a few holes where you have to throw by cars, and a small playground. the course is not marked well, and the tee pads consist of a board marking the end of the tee area.

Other Thoughts:

if you havnt played it, give it a shot, its still a pretty good course.
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6 0
mattdabbs
Gold level trusted reviewer
Experience: 20.7 years 104 played 61 reviews
2.00 star(s)

Bay Oaks 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 9, 2011 Played the course:once

Pros:

The first thing I want to say is how to find the course, for those reading on their phone, or looking around for this course. You have to park by the pool and walk between the baseball courses to the rec-center. You cannot drive to the rec center (at least that is what the pool staff told me). Hole 1 will be on your left as you walk up to the rec center doors.

Really nice to have disc golf this close to the beach. The only course closer to the beach I have ever played is Tocobaga, which used to have a hole right on the edge of the Gulf. This course is easy to play and hard to lose a disc on. It is short with few obstacles to keep you from getting birdies on most of the holes.

There were enough looks and obstacles to keep things somewhat interesting. 18 is the signature hole, throwing over a small pond to a guarded pin.

Cons:

It is unnerving to have to throw over all kinds of man-made obstacles, next to baseball fields and tennis courts with people on them, over vehicles, etc. I made the mistake of not getting a map. Make sure you get a map! Very frustrating...but I wouldn't lower my rating of this course due to my own mistake.

The course needs concrete tees. At a minimum it needs signs on every tee area to make them easier to spot, even if they just printed some off. Some were missing. Too many obstacles you don't want to hit that it becomes distracting. I don't like throwing over parked vehicles and near by-standards.

Other Thoughts:

It would have probably been better to make this course a high quality 9 hole course with some challenge and less dangerous obstacles instead of squeezing in 18 re-using pins.
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2 0
KGB84
Experience: 18.8 years 325 played 7 reviews
1.00 star(s)

Meh.... 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Mar 27, 2006 Played the course:once

Pros:

Didn't have to pay to play. The baskets are nice and in good shape. You can rent discs at the YMCA.

Cons:

Horrible hole layouts. Playing to same baskets for different holes. Can't play part of course when school is going on.

Other Thoughts:

Wouldn't play it again.
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3 0
RamsFan1
Gold level trusted reviewer
Experience: 13.5 years 91 played 91 reviews
1.50 star(s)

About What I Thought it Would Be 2+ years

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 22, 2010 Played the course:once

Pros:

18 hole course located in a small park adjacent to an elementary school and across the street from Ft. Myers Beach. Baskets all work well, are numbered (albeit crudely) on the inside support pole and are visible from the tee. Grass is more plush than I thought it would be in this area of Southern Florida. Some trees provide obstacles at some holes to challenge players.

Cons:

Navigation a nightmare. Two holes had the remnants of laminated, xeroxed tee markers- that was the extent of the help given to find your way around. No directional markers or visible signage to speak of. Some baskets apparently play as dual holes, as multiple numbers appeared on at least a couple of them. Railroad tie tee off areas are submerged to the point of being almost invisible. Many baskets located close to the fenced-in perimeter of the park, making it a distinct possibility you'll have to climb the fence and chase errant throws. Cannot play with elementary school children playing at the park.

Other Thoughts:

While in the Ft. Myers area for a couple of days, I decided to play the course. Rather than jam in 18 baskets, this course would be much improved with 9 baskets and a clear way to navigate. It's obvious Bay Oaks gets little use and even less TLC. I actually liked the coziness of the course, but as it stands, it really is for nothing better than to work on some short shots. Not enough people have put in the type of effort necessary for its maintenance and upkeep. Wish I lived in the area- I'd do it for free.
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0 1
gsklein
Experience: 15.8 years 88 played 3 reviews
0.50 star(s)

Don't bother playing it! 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jul 27, 2010 Played the course:once

Pros:

Holes Number 5,9 and 10 are the only holes in the park that are even worth throwing a disk at. This park is a rec. park that is tring to be too many things in the same small patch of land. If you Enjoy the sport and need to practice shots then use some of the baskets to work on your shots but dont play it as a course.

Cons:

Too many to count! So little room to smash too many sports into. 9 of the baskets should be taken out in hopes of making it an even close to enjoyable course.

Other Thoughts:

If you really need to throw plastic, then go. Otherwise don't bother wasteing your time
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5 0
zud00
Silver level trusted reviewer
Experience: 15.7 years 199 played 47 reviews
2.50 star(s)

DG and Beach, What More Could You Ask For?!?! 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 29, 2010 Played the course:once

Pros:

There aren't too many great things about this course; perhaps the best is that it is a course with nice baskets and it's near the beach.

There is a nice variety of holes-most holes are generally short and will require a putter or midrange, but there are also a few longer holes requiring a driver. In addition, the course seemed to fair to both lefties and righties. There was also a nice mix of fairways on this course, ranging from pretty tight to mostly open.

I was able to find all tee areas, I guess you could consider this a pro because of the fact that they are there. Along with the teepads, some of the holes had a tee sign which was only a laminated piece of paper zip-tied to a tree or fence.

Risk-Reward comes into play on many holes. Some baskets are dangerously close to fences or the woods meaning if you go long, or over, you could be in trouble. Hole 18 plays over a small pond, begging to snag your disc with an errant throw.

Cons:

Navigation at this course can be very difficult if you're not prepared. I had looked at the map and read reviews prior to playing, so I had a decent idea of where I was going. Also, the baskets that are used for multiple holes have stickers on them of each hole they are used for, so keep an eye out for that. Oh yeah, did I mention some baskets are used for more than one hole? That's not a terrible thing for this course, but a con nonetheless.

Teepads are marked with a board in the ground or painted on the concret/asphalt with spray paint. Most tee signs were missing, and there was a box for scorecards near hole one, but as you may have guessed, it was scorecardless and full of trash. Speaking of trash, there was a lot of trash on this course.

One more thing....this course plays around and over manmade obstacles, such as tennis courts, fences, basketball courts, parking lots, cars, playgrounds, ball fields, and near a school. Of course all of this was necessary to squeeze the course into this small area; this is definitely something you would want to avoid with any course.

Other Thoughts:

Despite all the cons listed, I had a great time playing this course. I went into this adventure with low expectations, and I think that helped tremendously. If I had not the slightest clue of the course layout or the fact that some baskets were used for multiple holes or the fact that I would need to look for spray painted tees on the ground, this would have been a frustrating day of DG. Prop's to all the DGCR'ers out there who take the time to write reviews and list this vital information.

Like I mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed the variety this course had to offer, mostly short holes, but a few long holes, and obstacles came in variety as well. I really liked hole 18...short and over a pond. If you're long, your O.B. (driveway). If you go right, your disc might be snagged by the tree and dropped into the pond. Basically you get to throw right into the fountain and take an ace run:).

I'd only recommend this course if you are in the area. I drove 15 minutes to play, but am not sure I'd go out of my way to play here. If you do, come with low expectations and a map. Expect to scuff up a few discs along the pavement or fences, and have a good time.
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2 0
Lanomode
Experience: 14.6 years 18 played 10 reviews
1.50 star(s)

Nice it's there, but poor set up 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 28, 2009 Played the course:once

Pros:

Something fun to do on Fort Myers Beach besides being at the beach. It's nice that the predominantly elderly community of FMB has included a younger persons activity in the park. My wife and I have only been playing for a little while so I can't say much in terms of difficulty level. As a beginner however, I felt the holes were quite easy, finding them was a different story.

Cons:

I printed out a map from the website just to make sure, only to get there and find out most of the holes have been switched around. Multiple holes that have the same baskets just seems like a last ditch effort to squeeze in more holes. Some of the Tee's are a faded painted line on a random part of the side walk or parking lot.

Other Thoughts:

Throwing across a parking lot, then a mud hole, then a pond... Area is too cramped. Also, course set up includes, on hole #2, throwing down a right angle fairway because of a tennis court fence. This does not add more challenge to the course, just frustration.
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3 0
nrohtlaw
Experience: 30.2 years 37 played 9 reviews
0.50 star(s)

What!!!!! Urban Disc Golf???? 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 8, 2009 Played the course:once

Pros:

I liked #1 and #3.

Cons:

Absolutely no signage,walked around for twenty minutes looking for some tee's("oh, it's the little spray paint mark on the walking path next to a building where I have to throw over a parking lot with cars on it").Next hole,("where is the next one,hmm I don't know there is five baskets within 100 feet of each other,maybe its the one tucked in surrounded by fence by the gate to the baseball diamonds").

Other Thoughts:

This course is a prime example of what happens when someone who has no clue of the game decides to build and design a course.They could have made a descent 9 hole,but instead they crammed 18 holes into an area half the size of Bonita Springs Rec..I will admit I did not have a map the first time,my bad.Next time I will be sure to bring one,Wait there won't be a next time,I would'nt want to waste my time.I'll give it a 0.5 rating just for the fact that it actually had baskets.Next to Spinski's in MI,WORST PARK EVER,and i've played a few.
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2 0
sonicsbeer
Experience: 15.1 years 5 played 5 reviews
1.00 star(s)

Not Enough Room 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 11, 2009 Played the course:once

Pros:

I would say that if you are a brand new player - and are definitely NOT using your own discs (they have loaners available in the rec center) - then this would be an easy course on which to get a feel for the game.

Cons:

There was nowhere near enough room for a proper 9 hole course here - let alone a full 18. In addition, the fairways are very often criss-crossed with tennis courts, basketball courts, parking lots, side walks... basically all manner of pavement. NOT very kind at all to a plastic disc.

Other Thoughts:

I appreciate that they tried to squeeze a course in the best they could with the room they had, but it just DOES NOT work. A disc golfer should not have to worry about the huge raccoon that just crawled out of a dumpster five feet off the fairway to investigate their disc. And yes, half the course is on an elementary school playground for heaven's sake!
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2 0
xfourevertruex
Experience: 6 played 6 reviews
2.50 star(s)

perfectly playable. 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 2, 2009 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

This course is (like most parks in southwest florida) kept-up well. There is little land, yet a full 18 holes. Great location and a decent level of difficulty for beginners/casual players. I am thankful to see the DGA baskets.

Cons:

Well-experienced players -- here's the deal. This course is great for your ego...not so hot for your game. Very forgiving holes, mostly on the short side. Several fairways cross and baskets are shared. Also, the locals are not the type to return lost discs. Not cool.

Other Thoughts:

All in all, I have no problems driving to this course to get a round in whenever possible. Southwest Florida is beautiful and this course really lets you enjoy the weather. Its disc golf AND the beach...how can that be bad?
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