2 Helpful / 20 Not
Pros: Soooo....I don't understand why this course has such a low rating. It seems like most of the people locally I've talked to said how crappy the course layout is, It makes no sense and so on. This is definitely a course you have to take time to plan your shots. If you want happy fun time feel good score go play Johnson Street from the white pads with the rest of the weekend chuckers. If you want a course that's gonna kick your butt and test your skills fully, this is the course, and personally I'm glad to see a course of this caliber in the area!! I thought the course was fairly easy to navigate, nice pads and quite challenging. Kudos to the designers and those who put this course in!!!
Cons: I only have two complaints, some of those soccer moms haul tail through there. So if you do wind up in the road, especially from 16-18, watch out. Apparently its 15 mph over the speed bumps and 60mph down to the soccer fields. And whoever Shaggy is who carved their name into the middle of one of the pads around 3 or 4, your a moron!!! I can't stand when idiots infiltrate a new disc golf course and start putting their stupid nicknames on everything. Shaggy? Really? Someone worked real hard to put that pad in and now it has your stupid nickname on it.
Other Thoughts: Get out and play this course!!!
2 of 22 people found this review helpful.
0 Helpful / 26 Not
Pros: Pro level course. This course defines the sport for the future. Precision and location and length. This has it all for taking your game to the next level. Par 62 is no joke.
Cons: I don't believe in Par 2's but it does help the Par schematic.
0 of 26 people found this review helpful.
26 Helpful / 3 Not
Pros: Layout - Overall the course is what I call park style where the course flows a mainly public park setting with few trees and more open fairways.
The best thing about this course is a mixture of distances multiple par holes. You have everything from some shorter par 3's to some monster 1000'+ holes.
It's a predominant placement type course where the emphasis is on where you land not so much gaps you have to hit.
A solid amount of OB helps reinforce the placement shot challenge. There's quite a bit of it and you deal with it beginning to end.
The part of the course I most enjoyed was the 6-11 stretch. Some fun shots where some factors I'll mention in cons are less of a concern. It not only plays the best but is the most beautiful part of the course with some interesting features in play like willow trees.
There's a tad bit of elevation changes in the course with some shots off small hills and a few holes that play along slopes.
Course flows well and it's obvious where to go next most of the time. No long walks to the next pad.
Equipment - Brand new Discatchers and concrete pads that were generally sized appropriately for each hole.
Atmosphere - Really nice new looking park with some great facilities. Wasn't anybody else there really when I was there but with multiple baseball/multipurpose fields on the complex I'm sure that won't be the standard.
Cons: Layout - It's a predominant open and flattish course with only two real wooded holes. If you like technical gap hitting disc golf this isn't it. For me there isn't enough balance.
Now to the nitty gritty; in my honest opinion this course was an overreach by the designers. They wanted to make this a championship caliber course with multi-shot holes and an emphasis on placement while throwing at distance and in a way they suceeded. However, the course seems forced on to parts of the park disc golf just shouldn't be which causes not only non-interesting holes but safety issues.
For starters some holes play way to close to the road and parking lots while others play way to close to the fields in the complex. Not to mention you wrap around the fields going counter clockwise so RHBH & LHFH players have a high risk of fading towards the fields and roads. I don't think I'd be comfortable even playing the course if there were kids on the fields.
Secondly the spaces these holes near the fields and roads are crammed in to just seems inefficient and overly punitive considering the OB. I get this course was designed for top level players in mind but we all know the majority of the players will be recreational and unable to control their discs at a level necessary for this to be safe, especially since the shots call for long bombs.
They did put up some Mandos around the baseball field to try and force the issue but to me this is just a sign that the hole shouldn't be there.
I think the course could have been designed as a 9 holer and put in the area where 4-10 and 18-2 currently exists. You could of still had some multi shot holes within this without adding in the more dangerous shots on the course.
There's also a block of woods to the right of 18 that may have been used to give more balance however I don't know if this was usable so I'll excuse that.
To me instead of putting in the 1200' #8 this area should have been broken up in to multiple holes so you could keep more risky shots out as well.
In the end you have some good holes but some really bad and dangerous holes forced in to get from A to B.
Another issue I have is that even some of the better holes equate to throwing a big hyzer or anny over and over. That's most of the front 9 then the back 9 is throw super straight and don't fade left or right and go OB.
The first wooded hole (#2) on the course gives you a tight tunnel shot but it's possible to throw a big hyzer over the trees and championship level players can definitely simplify this hole extremely.
The second wooded hole (#15) has you throwing out of the woods but the fairway isn't discernible at present. I would of moved the pad farther up so you still have a gap you're throwing out of on this par 4 but not a pinball lane. If that was done you could of moved the basket for #14 in to the woods a bit and had a more interesting shot instead of another wide open boring shot.
There's other things that weren't great about this course like the overgrowth and briar coming way to close to a few fairways and greens and I honestly believe this stuff will be taken care of so I'm not going to put a lot of emphasis on it.
Judging from the overall design of the course I would consider a redesign that puts safety and balance at the forefront where as now it just seems like they ignored everything but trying to create challenge through hefty OB.
Equipment - No tee signs as of yet although this could be soon remedied. They used tape to put up the M's for Mando and it's already coming off although that may have been temporary and might end up getting something more permanent.
Where they poured the pads they left overflow concrete in the front and back of the pads which is not only an eyesore but a safety issue although again this is maybe something they end up taking care of they had just poured these pads.
Atmosphere - As I said I played this course when the park was mostly empty though I can see if some baseball games were going on you'd have a ton of people throughout the park and getting in your way. That would make what to me was a not fun round even less enjoyable.
Other Thoughts: I think it's great these guys had a vision to try and make something grand for the area but to me this was just a poor choice of venue. I sincerely hope what I perceived as huge safety risks turn out to not be so.
Overall I enjoyed a part of the course but the rest to me was not only boring but frustrating considering the issues that popped out to me. I don't recommend playing this course.
I also hope the people who put the work in to make this course happen don't take this as a personal judgement against them and the work they've done but instead as constructive feedback.
As another helpful guide and something I normally don't do I'll post the holes I think need to be reconsidered.
2 - move tee closer to the wood and prevent an over the top shot
3 - perhaps break it up in to smaller holes that lessen the chance of safety issues or remove this part of the course altogether
4 - the short pad to me is not a big safety issue however the long pad seems dangerous
8 - break this hole up in to smaller holes and perhaps use the woods on the left more after clearing out the overgrowth
12 & 13 - both seemed forced just to get you to the other side of the park. due to this i'd think about scrapping 12 - 17 altogether and not using any of that area of the park.
26 of 29 people found this review helpful.
24 Helpful / 3 Not
Pros: Here's why I'm giving this a zero. I care a lot about disc golf courses and their design. Maybe too much, because I've sat through a 3 hour meeting, put in some labor, had lots of emails with P&R head Tony Laws, canvassed feedback from respected DG course minds like renowned designers John Houck, Chuck Kennedy, Stan McDaniels, Mark Huether, et al, and lots of arguing with the simple goal of making this course suck less, not more. Despite my best efforts to make logical, reasonable, and worthwhile changes to the course the majority foolishly decided to make the SPC suck more instead. So at that I say, respectfully of course, f**k 'em. Go ahead and thumb down my rating you pea-brained, petulant poltroons. I scoff at your disdain and fart in your general direction. Onto the review:
PROS!: It's conveniently located off the interstate and near a nice little city called Burlington. It's even just down the road from a kickass Play It Again Sports with a great disc selection!
It's wide open if you're into that sort of thing. That makes it a great place to test drive your new plastic, practice your distance, and look more like George Hamilton. Large expanses of mowed grass and parking lots are in ample supply!
When the softball games are going, which is quite often, you can swing by the concessions stand! Bathrooms and water fountains also!
Practice basket, concrete tees galore of all shapes and sizes and now some rubber/gravel tees that are large and flat (for now). There's a gazebo thing to sit in and a nice kiosk/signboard too.
Rarely crowded! Many of the locals aren't dickheads but actually nice folks, like Mr Joe Stewart and Mr Harold Bryant for example. Shout out to Tenacious EJ also.
There's a smattering of elevation change that keeps it from being completely flat and boring. Even a tree or two to throw around.
Cons: This is a hole x hole whine-a-thon for the record but some aren't actually cons:
H1: Decent, very possible to fade into the road though. BADGE kicked around the idea of putting the long tee behind the dumpster, so you'd have to power an anhyzer a good ways around the curve and hopefully not fade out early into the (busy) park entrance road.
H2: Decent, only predominately wooded hole.
H3: Should not exist, period. Original hole 3's biggest problem was that it was too easy to hyzer out a wide-rimmed missile and end up in the softball field. Logically you'd get rid of those tees, especially if A: you have to backtrack down hole 2's fairway to reach them and B: they are literally in hole 2's fairway with just some skinny pines to deflect away shanked drives from hole 2. Nope, they kept the dangerous long tee and added another tee so that players from the shorts can backtrack and worry about getting nailed in the back of the head too. Reasoning for the dumbest tee placements on the course? Too far to walk to safer tees on a course rife with long walks anyway. You already walk more here than Frodo does in all three LotR movies so what's another 100'? The new pin placement is dumb b/c you can park your drive within the 10m circle and have no birdie putt thanks to a wall of pine limbs.
H4: Besides it should be hole 3 it's "okay." Tees are on the sidewalk and it's a tough hole for RHBH b/c it's all about awkward angles. The "tees" run diagonally across the sidewalk and hitting the mando and landing in bounds is a tough angle. Other than that, it's a fun, challenging hole with an elevation drop. I still think a shorter tee inside the mando is needed b/c softball players love to warm up on the area where discs missing the mando or fading too soon can easily go.
H5: Decent hole now that the original designer was talked out of the original, crazy, long tee placement. Original hole 5 was a par 2 but its basket got moved to crime against humanity hole 3.
H6: One of the better holes, despite long throws being able to reach the street.
H7: A boring, wide-open bomb hole at a distance that makes it awkward for setting par. Too short and obstacle-less for a good par 4, way too long for a par 3 unless you're a Gold lvl player. The only interesting thing is there's a little rise in the land to avoid from the long tee, that wouldn't be a factor if the BADGE guys get their way and move the long tee into the flood plain they picked out, b/c the long tee is "too close" to the street. There's a hole at Stumpy Creek that is way closer to a street than this tee and they generally know what they're doing down there. More whinging about this later.
H8: This used to be a S-winding abomination for par 6 distance. The original gold and blue tees are still there and this causes lots of confusion for new players. Instead of playing across the narrow span between the park road and the woods, occupied mostly by a slope too steep to bush hog and home to some of the nastiest briers you'll ever see, you skip most of this and play a shortened version of the hole to a basket out in the wide open instead of down in brier valley. The White tee is right behind the corner of the parking lot and amazingly enough they're actually going to use my idea for the Blue tee. Instead of putting it just farther back of the White tee between the road's shoulder and the slope it will be down in the valley so you have to throw up onto the plateau. You'd have to throw over the slope of briers either way, this tee position creates some much needed elevation change and might make an honest par 4 out of it. To really help make an honest par 4 out of it, I'd make it a raised basket to continue the pyramid effect of playing from the Blue tee.
H9: Decent park golf hole. BADGE wanted to make a hole that played downhill by the shelter to hole 10's basket (roughly) for hole 9. Not a terrible idea per se but nearly the entire f*$@ing course is "Wide open left, disc eating rough bordering right" so making another of those at the expense of a perfectly okay hole is stupid. There's not much challenge to this hole but you can choose between the safer turnover line or go as the crow flies between the trees with a sweeping hyzer. On a course full of nearly impossible to birdie (without good reason) holes this is a nice change of pace.
H10: Decent. I'd widen the front of the tee 2-3 feet to encourage the spike hyzer line which would reduce usage of the turnover line which, if the drive doesn't stay turned over, can easily sail into the road. Fun fact: BADGE also wanted to do away with this hole, making it play sort of backwards from the basket (on the hill next to the road technically) to roughly where hole 9's basket is, as a new hole 17. It would've been another straight hole at an awkward distance where turned over drives would go sailing into the park road. This was one of their better ideas.
H11: Possibly the best hole on the course and the only hole that plays L>R. I pray to God that BADGE doesn't go through with their plan to combine 11 and 12 into one long, yet another straight hole that plays continuously towards(!) the soccer fields. The tree(s)'s limbs do need to be trimmed back a bit for the Blue tee now.
H12: This basket used to be around the corner and a blind, slight dogleg left. Going around the corner of the soccer field and not being able to see the basket bothered people so they made it another dead straight hole. The new pin placement is right on the corner of the slope of the soccer fields, where rainwater empties off the fields. This combined with increased foot traffic (around the basket is one of the highest areas of concentrated foot traffic) can possibly undermine the integrity of that sloped corner and cause problems over time. This course doesn't get played enough for it to be a problem currently but in the future, who knows? You could easily correct this by moving the basket a little farther back onto flat land or maybe making it a slight turnover by clearing out a section of woods by the creek (it would be easy to do during winter and keep down year round).
H13: This is the hole that has actually had multiple complaints and making this into 2 much shorter (thus safer) holes should've been 1st on the priority list of redesign. They (BADGE) still haven't done this yet. Originally you had a nearly 1000' hole, dead straight (notice a theme yet?) par 6 with a fairway narrowly between multiple soccer fields to the left and multiple houses to the right. Pick your poison: Bean a soccer playing kiddo or lose your disc in someone's yard. Yeah, it sucked. Good riddance. Now, you walk ~700' (remember, the walk from 2's basket to 4's tees was "too long") to play the last third of the original hole, still plenty of soccer field and private property to worry about.
H14: Same soccer fields on the left, now you get cow pasture and a barbed wire fence on the right. A row of pines are helping to block you out of the pasture as they grow but they're also encouraging you to hug the soccer field. Hmm. Boring pin placement in the wide open makes up for it though (sarcasm). Did I mention this hole's straight?
H15: Welcome to the only piece of park property beyond the soccer fields suitable for a hole. It's a shame that you have to make terrible filler holes to get to it. Blue tee is an awkwardly angled dogleg left without a well defined fairway through a patch of nice woods. White tee is, care to guess? STRAIGHT! But much better. Then it gets open for a bit and then you have parking lot on the left, pasture on the right and some short, ornamental trees between you and the basket. Risk OB or throw rollers under the low ceiling of these short, pesky trees. I would love to see holes 14 and 15 combined into one good hole. Move 15's basket shorter and just inside the start of the tiny trees and put the tees where drives are much less likely to go into the soccer field, good drives landing smartly inside some natural tunnels through the woods. It would play open>wooded>open and might even be a strategic par 4. Probably won't happen b/c Mike Avillion ably demonstrated his inability to hit a gap through unaltered woods at dusk during a walk-through.
H16 and H17: "Holes 16 and 17 are complete throw away holes. They're much shorter than the rest of the course, only about 200 feet from the white tees, with a treeline bordering the right side of the fairway and a road on the left. Theses holes are right on the road, albeit a low traffic one, unless there are a lot park goers. These holes seemed to be placed here for no other reason than to connect the gigantic loop around the perimeter of the park." Nailed it! Couldn't have said it better myself, KenanFlagler01. Worse than these holes is the long walk between them, probably longer than the holes combined. 17's a par 2, too, which people hate. Honestly, there are a gazillion par 3 holes out there that are secretly par 2's (so-called "Deuce-or-Die") but most people aren't steeped in design knowledge enough to appreciate the abstractness of a par 2 and they're just so rare that having one is bizarre and to be avoided. Fun fact: BADGE wanted to move hole 17's long tee to right beside the road. So hole 7's tee with a road 10-12' behind you is unsafe whereas 17's tee directly alongside the road to the left is okay? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
H18: Originally had two tees that befuddled everyone. The Gold was at an awkward angle that forced you to lay up around a corner lest you fly off into the road; Blue was more straight on and kind of a quasi-tunnel shot but still very technical and bizarre for such a long hole. These tees are still there (nice bench too) to befuddle SPC players of future generations. The Gold tee was just a bad idea, plain and simple. Blue tee is salvageable. If it was lined up with the tunnel (ideally on the left side of that tree closest to it) and the rough trimmed back a bit more (ice storm actually opened this up a lot, naturally) it would be a technical but fair gap for Blue level players. The park road would still be well in play but it's a corner of the road and it's Springwood, a road is always in play. At least here it would a mid or putter off an errant precision shot going into the road instead of a wide rimmed distance driver thrown hard for distance. The basket also got moved from a slightly raised pin placement farther back to just alongside a little ridge that doesn't really do anything for the hole. New tees are much shorter and take road mostly out of play (I'm fine with that) but the new Blue tee is right beside a birdhouse (the birds must be thrilled) and the White tee is what used to be the Red tee (Original designers were going to put Reds on all the holes before design responsibility was usurped by BADGE). The new tees and pin placement make this yet another straight, open hole (with trees on the right, yippie!) at an awkward par 3.5 distance. To be fair, I hear a lot of people ask why don't they use those woods alongside holes 18 and 1 more and the answer is because the park owns like none of that. I would at least move the basket farther back, maybe even to the left behind the dumpster. Anywhere than it's current, boring, do nothing location.
Other Thoughts: I've ragged on BADGE quite a bit in this review. Specifically I'm throwing under the bus Jon Owens, Mike Avillion, and Jayson Prutzman, the key cogs taking a badly designed course fraught with safety issues and making it objectively worse. Oh, and Robert Leonard also wrote a glowing letter of recommendation (out of cronyism) for BADGE's redesign proposal despite admittedly never visiting Springwood and actually looking at the proposal. That's a complete Richard maneuver if you ask me. These are some of the most intractable, logic averse, unprofessional, uncritical thinking people with whom I've had the displeasure of dealing. And that's saying something since the original designer, chiefly Buzz Sharpe, is one of the most polarizing, temperamental, and set in his ways of any person you're likely to find. To his and Chuck Rhoades' credit, they've been way more open-minded and reasonable than BADGE has ever thought about being with this course. It's a shame they didn't get a fair chance to fix the SPC. So if you come here and see all the awfulness firsthand, realize that this is the result of BADGE turning the course into their own personal plaything and ostracizing the original designers and anybody that disagrees with them.
Tony Laws though is a really nice guy; I just hate I couldn't get him to see things in a non-BADGE way. Unfortunately they've filled his head with nonsense like Springwood hosting a major tournament and creating big tourism dollars (we're talking about a sport where touring pros crash on people's couches to save money) when in reality the park is much better suited for a Red/White level 9 holer away from the athletic fields. Even Jon Owens has stated such (then scant paragraphs later stating that it would be a good idea to expand(!) Springwood to more than 18 holes. I'm not making this sh!t up, I swear to God). I'm really sorry he had to witness such a petty display of disc golfers bickering and the absolute nadir of what the disc golfing community represents. Hopefully he doesn't let BADGE design a course in marina park, there will probably be massive fish kill off somehow if he does (I'm not putting anything past Owens and co.) C'est la vie.
So yeah, the SPC is probably not really a zero, more like a 2 at best but it absolutely merits a zero since it had the potential to not be a perilous clusterf*ck of dumb design but ABYSMALLY remained that way. It's a bunch of open, boring, straight holes with monotonous terrain that gets old quick and didn't need to be such a danger to other park patrons. It's ABYSMAL that in the 2000's we can't put in a course without such close proximity to roads, ball fields, people's yards, etc and even more ABYSMAL that a redesign can't do any better.
24 of 27 people found this review helpful.
9 Helpful / 0 Not
Pros: -Two Concrete tees each Hole
-Nice brand new INNOVA Baskets
- plenty of ace runs
- good mix of distances
- Challenging long holes
- Easy walk, could easily use your cart here
- Practice Basket
- Restrooms, water fountains
-Fantastic field in the back nine for field testing
- FANTASTIC MAP/SCORE CARD with plenty on info on it including 'effective length'
Cons: - Needs cleaned up (hole 8 needs it bad)
- some of the tees make no sense (18?)
- Layout of back needs redone before the concrete gets poured
-spider webs on 2
-mow line OB makes sense but is excessive on some holes
- Park goers will come into play
Other Thoughts: Im going to give a hole by hole since this is the first and to explain the rating
#1- Great starter hole, up hill, very good birdie from both tees, with OB on the left, 205'-260'
#2- Nice straight shot into a pine tree cluster, another good birdie that even if you get of the fairway you should be able to save par. both tees are nice
#3-tee pads weren't poured when i played but still playable, I like the length but playing around the baseball field is worry some considering there was a huge tournament finishing up when i played and with so much 'mow line' OB its kinda silly but a good challenge. Feel lucky to make par
#4- A nice ace run hole from both tees, pretty open with good basket placement
#5- 152' foot ace run with OB behind it, I liked it from both tees.
#6- Another nice birdie hole, throws downhill, again a nice hole
#7- Nice uphill and a good hole to stretch your arm out with no worries, solid 3
#8- 1002' with WAY TO MUCH WORK LEFT TO MAKE IT GREAT, I could see where they wanted you to go with it but dear lord it needs bush hogged sooo bad. I actually played over the road which was a terribly unsafe and make the other park goers come into play and OB. The Distance wasn't the problem, a 15' wide fairway is. The tree line on the right isnt even a problem but all the extra long grass on both sides is terrible and not worth spending all that time looking for a disc. I played the high route which you wouldnt want to do cuz it will be OB eventually. The basket is in a great spot.
#9- Short hole with a great basket spot that makes for a good uphill birdie
#10- another downhill ace run thats shorter but you dont wanna blow way pass and end up in the tree line
#11- A great 400+ turn over shot with some thick rough to the right. with the field as OB on the left
#12- A Nice hole with a good basket placement, but still needs cleaned out a good bit, I feel like this is a hole that will gobble your disc if you out drive the hole. Tee pad was yet to be poured but good spot
#13- Another hole where the 'mow line' OB is ridiculous, your throwing between a massive field of OB on the left and long strip of houses on the right thats OB. Again a silly fairway and where two tee pads a redundant as your already throw over 700' not a fan of this hole but the basket is in a good spot with a wire fence behind it.
#14- a hole with no obstacles but a wire fence to the right, both tee pads are an ace run. I would rather see the basket tucked in the woods where the next tee pad is.
#15- the long tee here is at a odd angle which doesnt really spice it up but I guess it nice. I feel like where these tees are the basket for 14 should be and bump these tees to the edge of the trees because there really isnt a great line to the basket. With Parking lot OB on the left and the fence on the right. I feel like this would play better with playing from the edge of the woods.
#16- a little dinker ace run with OB left and tree line right.
#17- so walk 30' past 16s pin and pour some dang pads, with the roads as OB it would be awesome, I see how the parking lot deters you from it but I honestly dont see how its any less risk than hole 3 and 13, I honestly feel l like the ball was dropped here and the current hole is just a filler and only challenge is the OB and weird stick in front of the short tee.
#18 first off, the longest tee pad in pointing straight at the trees and for a 800+ that is silly, the other tee pad is reasonable for a challenging finish. and then there is a third tee pad that across the road which makes so much better of a short. and the basket is extra tall which makes a nice touch.
9 of 9 people found this review helpful.
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