Tallahassee, FL

Tom Brown Park - Old Layout

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3.815(based on 29 reviews)
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Tom Brown Park - Old Layout reviews

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2 1
epicrat
Experience: 8.5 years 14 played 7 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Solid course 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Sep 13, 2016 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

24 solid holes. Not too short, not too long. 9 is the longest at ~650 feet. One of the letter holes is the shortest at like 170 feet (roughly, not 100% sure)

-Nice player base. Groups of 5 usually realize there's a solo player waiting behind them and let them play through. (I play solo a fair amount, rarely have oblivious people not letting me play through)

-Weekday afternoons.... absolutely EMPTY. I'm a student who works weird hours so once in a while I have the opportunity to play on a weekday at like 3pm. I'm usually the only one on the course, if not, one of three.

Weekends (see cons) are pretty hectic. It's still playable but bring some drinks in the summer cause it gets incredibly hot when you're standing still waiting for the hole to clear.

Signage is good. Has the hole info and a small map of the hole. Tom Brown gets played often enough for there to be a wear-trail so you can find your way from hole-to-hole.

This is my OG course. The one I started on about a year ago. I feel spoiled to have this as my "home" course.

Cons:

Saturdays.... so many people (lots of DGers plus lots of park-goers)

Lack of trash cans? There are like 4 on the whole course. Just a pet peeve, but then again, it's a free-to-play course.

Honestly I can't think of any other cons. The holes are diverse and require a variety of throws. Most are RHBH friendly, though some tend to favor LHBH or RHFH.

Other Thoughts:

Summary:

Great course.
Variety of holes, some open, a good amount not so much.
Avoid Saturdays unless you're patient or have beer with you.
Good signage.

See you on the course.
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2 0
wellsbranch250
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Experience: 10.1 years 652 played 629 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Play the extra holes 2+ years

Reviewed: Updated: Played on:Aug 5, 2016 Played the course:2-4 times

Pros:

One of the best courses I've played in the State of Florida (30 as of this review revision)
- UNIQUENESS - The best thing about Tom Brown is the total amount of uniqueness of the totality of the holes. It has just about everything. There are water elements (in bonus hole area) Some good elevation changes for a Florida course, some moderate doglegs, pocket shots, window shots, splitter shots, overhead plays, heavily wooded shots, tunnel fairways, open holes and a par 4. the only thing thats missing is a pond element and a par 5.
- BONUS HOLES - the first time I played, I was in a time crunch and skipped the bonus holes. what a mistake, I should showed of late to my other engagement and finished up these holes. there are 6 of them, the first being a great downhill elevation shot. the next 3 play threw some moderate to heavy woods. the last two open up and circle back to hole 14.
- SHOTS - you will need every disc in your bag for this course. If you're a one trick pony, you'll be handicapped for sure. You'll be able to bomb a few shots without worry as well. (9 and 11 especially)
- CHARACTER - Tom Brown has many of the pampering items that you'd see at the older established courses. there's a course map at hole 1/practice area, and appears mostly accurate. Be sure to tack a pic, you'll need it. There is seating as bunch of holes. There are multiple tee pads at a majority of the holes. There are multiple pin placements at many of the holes which is great if your a regular. There are good restroom facilities nearby.
- This course should be able to satisfy a newer player and advanced played at the same time.

Cons:

- DRAINAGE - Having played the course a second time now, mud and standing water was an issue both times. not sure if this is common theme here or just a coincidence due to the rainy season.
- NAVIGATION - The hole signage, although nice, did not always appear 100% accurate to the surrounding trees. A first timer will have a tough time determining which basket placement the hole is at on a first go around. I found myself running up the fairway on several occasions to check the pin placement as it is often a blind location. I also found myself constatntly check the map on my phone. I am so glad i snapped a photo of the course map. I will also add that is would be nice to add pin location pegs at the tee sign.
- OVERGROWTH - Its bad in several areas on holes 3-5, 12-D, F-15. it does not help that many of the holes have tight fairways. In addition i did spot poison ivy so be careful reaching for your disc.
- TEES - a couple of the pro tee pads seemed ridiculously hard. I'll point out 14 specifically which has no line to the basket. the only play has to be a layup just beyond the am tees. I wonder if locals that play pro tees move up to ams on that hole.
- PARKING - not a deal breaker, but its pitted and gravel.


Other Thoughts:

If your in the panhandle, be sure that this course is on your list to check out.
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1 4
Bkmcmahon
Experience: 8.7 years 6 played 2 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Nice and challenging course 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Sep 6, 2015 Played the course:once

Pros:

I really like this course. If play from the blues, it is very long and a bit tougher. Reds are almost too short. Most of the holes are wide open and forgiving. 6 holes are in trees and require more accuracy.
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5 0
S.Cann
Gold level trusted reviewer
Experience: 14.9 years 156 played 82 reviews
4.00 star(s)

2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Dec 27, 2014 Played the course:once

Pros:

This course has some of the prettiest greens. Grass was cut low, fairways were free of debris, and no trash to speak of.

The ratio of wooded to open holes is perfect. To shoot well here you have have to have length, but this course also puts a premium on accuracy forcing you to hit very specific lines on several of the wooded holes.

Baskets are DISCatchers in good shape with double chains.

Tee Signs and pads are fantastic. Two tees on every hole. They were plenty long and some were increased in size based on the hole.

All challenges are present at Tom Brown: Distance, tight gaps, Creeks, OB, Guarded pins, Precarious putts, etc.

Cons:

TB is somewhat lacking in parking. There is a small lot right next to the course map, but lots of people were parked along the road leading to that lot.Which brings me to my next point...

This park is CROWDED. I guess that's one of the cons to having such a good course. Not only were there many groups playing DG, but there was a large playground nearby, kids playing in some of the fairways, people walking, etc.

This course could really use a water carry (more than the small creeks around the a-f holes) to take it to that next level.

Other Thoughts:

Tom Brown really has it all, from long open throws to short and tightly wooded and as I stated in my review of Jack McLean these two courses go so well together. I don't want to say it's like Jekyll and Hyde (Tom Brown being Hyde) because they are both great courses in their own right. It's more like Han Solo and Chewbacca. The best duos can exist independently of one another and I think either of these courses would be just fine taken on their own.
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4 0
reposado
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Experience: 12.7 years 278 played 273 reviews
3.00 star(s)

2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 21, 2014 Played the course:once

Pros:

Mix of wooded and open holes that mostly sit in-between beginner and intermediate difficulty. Probably would make a great starter course for someone learning the game as there is little underbrush even among the wooded holes and the player gets a taste of everything (except water) without being asked to do anything difficult. There are open holes that will stress drive placement. There are wooded holes that will stress line shaping. And there is one hole that will let discers really air out a long drive. There is even a surprising amount of elevation.
The bonus holes are a little raw but they feature some of the more interesting lines of the course. A few of them may be NAGSish but there are some bends that are fun to try a hand at. And the open bonus hole is steeply uphill with woods to the left. If you just play the standard 18, you get a very light, very casual round. The extra six provide just what is needed to make the course appealing to a traveling layer of some experience.
The best quality of Tom Brown is probably the amenities. It appears to be a very well-kept park and the tees, tee signs and baskets are in perfect condition. Add next tee signs and this course would possibly be a 3.5.

Cons:

Navigation.......The map is really nice, but I don't really want to pull it out after every basket. The confusion is often caused by open space and not criss-crossing trails so really, a painted spoke would be enough to get you moving in the right direction. The one time that there is a long walk, between nine and ten, the arrow is not aligned correctly.
The wide open holes with a straight look at the basket are too common. Granted there are 24 holes here but a bunch are about 200-300 feet without a single obstacle. Luckily these are the holes that play by the park roads so discs are unlikely to kick towards a car and ideally players can accurately throw this distance and stay off the asphault.
It's a fun course, but it really lacks the variety that I want to see in a premier course. There are two sets of pads on most holes but they typically don't play differently. The bonus holes are quirky and fun but not wow holes. If you play here, it will likely end up being an enjoyable but non-memorable round. (As long as you have the map)
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1 0
Scottsan
Experience: 22 years 8 played 3 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Great Variety 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Oct 11, 2014 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

Great mix of mostly open holes and somewhat tight wooded holes. The course is well marked and plays away from most of the park's other multi-use functions.

Cons:

Not a lot to complain about, honestly. I'm not a pro, so the course length and hole variety are definitely challenging/interesting enough. I think it's a little baffling how the more recent changes have Holes 7 and 8 at 220 feet (amateur) and Hole 9 is about three times that.

Other Thoughts:

This is my "home" course, and I was there when it was originally/permanently installed (2002). Since then, there have been numerous changes . . . mostly for the better. I don't play the A-F holes as often as the others.

I've played several courses in the Atlanta area and I think this one rates very favorably, likely better than Lenora or Redan and comparable to Alexander Park (but longer).
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4 0
Loomis
Experience: 16.7 years 519 played 14 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Great course 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 20, 2014 Played the course:2-4 times

Pros:

The course has brand new tee signs for both long and short tees. It also has signs guiding you around the course. Fun. Challenging. Fair. Safe. Has bathrooms. No security issues. Course looks well maintained.

Cons:

The open holes are fun but they lack any challenge other than distance.

Fire ants are everywhere so bring a stool to put your bag on while you throw.

Other Thoughts:

I read the reviews and was unsure if I wanted to play the course given all the negative comments regarding tee signs and course navigation. However, we found the course to be well marked and easy to navigate. Granted the walk from hole 9 to hole 10 is long and awkward it's still not that hard to find.

Great course with a great selection of shots. The visual distances will fool you. It's bigger than it looks.

The water holes are nothing you need to worry about. It's a shallow creek. If you find the creek with your shots you'll get the disc back. The real threat is the thick brush on the course that will swallow any bad shot. Don't get cocky and try a sky hyzer. Keep it on the fairway or you won't see your disc ever again.

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0 5
myroomisajunkyard
Experience: 13.8 years 238 played 1 reviews
3.00 star(s)

2+ years

Reviewed: Played on:Aug 4, 2013 Played the course:once

Pros:

Cement tees
Big space
first 9 holes

Cons:

didn't know where to go after I crossed the road. I saw all the tee's found few with signs, saw baskets but no numbers. Some basket apparently was gone, I went in the winter so I'm not sure if they took it down for the season, thinking it was Florida it'd be up all year round.
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0 3
westflagator
Experience: 12.2 years 26 played 10 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Signs 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Apr 18, 2013 Played the course:once

Pros:

Can't say much different then Notverygood. He describe everything about the course perfect.

Cons:

Agree with him about signs. I was very lost trying to find my way around. I also think that there needs to be more garbage cans around the course and the baskets need to be painted or cleaned so they could be seen easier.

Other Thoughts:

I did meet a cool guy named Mr. Gill who helped me alot.
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3 0
Notverygood
Silver level trusted reviewer
Experience: 14.6 years 76 played 34 reviews
3.50 star(s)

Overall a great course 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Feb 20, 2013 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

Challenging, but not too tough. Enough tight, low ceiling shots to make you mad, but enough wide open long bomb holes to even it out.

Relatively well maintained. Concrete tee pads at all 24 holes, and most have tee signs.

The layout is convenient, hole 9 ends up back near the parking area, as does hole 18. Makes it easy to play a quick 9 holes after work, or play all 18-24.

A decent amount of elevation change for a Florida course. I'm sure nothing compared to others, but compared to some courses further south in Fla, it's nice.

Extra 6 holes! The regular 18 are fun, but the additional 6 are some unique, tougher shots.

Friendly regulars. Always willing to let you play through, offer help or shoot the bull.

The park that the course is in is awesome! Tons of sports fields, top notch r/c track, some of the best mtn biking in Florida, a huge playground, a dog park, etc. etc. etc. plenty of other things to do aside from disc golf there!

Cons:

Outdated, poor condition signage at some holes.

Although I know the way now, the trek from hole 9 to 10 got me lost and wasn't marked very well.

Unfortunately being in such an active/awesome park, you'll often encounter runners, bikers, idiots, picnickers, and people not aware they're in the way.

Aside from thick woods and roads, it lacks some OB obstacles. No real water holes. Again, hardly a con!

Other Thoughts:

Overall, I'm lucky to have such a great course so close to home. If you're passing by on I-10 or in town, I highly recommend throwing a round or two here! And with all the other great things to do at the park, don't be afraid to bring the family
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6 2
Connor Jones
Silver level trusted reviewer
Experience: 13.8 years 76 played 34 reviews
3.50 star(s)

So close to being so awesome. 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Mar 22, 2012 Played the course:once

Pros:

Nice baskets.

Uniform teepads as far as I can remember, a good length and width.

The bonus six holes are awesome and allow you to throw all sorts of fun lines.

There is some really excellent elevation out here, I think hole 11 is the huge downhill one, that is a freaking excellent hole with a fun teeshot.

Huge park, a ton of things to do here with some really massive playgrounds for kids.

Two sets of tees that actually do provide a different look, they did extremely well in this department.

The teesigns get the job done.

Cons:

There is only one con, but it is kind of a big one, for me personally I felt as if a lot of these holes just sort of run together, kind of monotonous in flavor. This is why I really appreciated the letter holes because I felt as if they spiced things up quite a bit. A lot of these holes are just really open though and didn't offer a ton of variety.

Other Thoughts:

This is a great course, I personally prefer something a bit more wooded but this was really fun none-the-less. If I had to just pick one course though, it would be Jack McLean because I believe that is the better balanced course.

Regardless, play this one if you have time for both, it still is a very good course and I'll play it again when I return.
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0 3
knightmare0101
Experience: 11.8 years 14 played 4 reviews
4.50 star(s)

My favorite course 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 19, 2012 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

Will require all the shots in your arsenal from the tee box--backhand, flick, distance, accuracy shot through trees, high to low, low to high, etc. Good variety of holes, from wide open to tight woods holes. The bonus six holes are played through the woods, and one time I saw three owls. Locals are very friendly and park feels extremely safe. This course is my favorite.

Cons:

Sometimes gets crowded on the weekends or has tournaments.
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2 0
flyingdisc
Experience: 12.8 years 18 played 17 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Tallahassee has a winner 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 16, 2012 Played the course:once

Pros:

-Great variety of holes
-Plenty of open and wooded areas to play
-Signs at every hole
-Benches at a lot of the holes
-Concrete Am and Pro tee pads at most holes
-Beautiful park
-Playground area for families looked well maintained
-Shaved ice vendor (day we played)
-Beginner friendly

Cons:

-Couple of baskets looked aged
-Newer signs at some tee pads needed
-No maps of course that I could find
-Parking lot at hole 1 could be bigger

Other Thoughts:

Finally got to play here! Drove almost two hours to come play here and Jack McLean after hearing so much about each park. I do have to say it was worth the drive. A really nice combination of interesting holes. A little something for everyone no matter what your skill level. A great course for beginners and pros alike. I really enjoyed how the course plays in and out of the woods in at least two different areas, with an average of three or four holes in each section, with open sections in between. I do believe you could try just about every shot in your arsenal here, from long bombing drives and technical shots, to rollers on a couple of holes. A beautiful park with Am and Pro tees on just about every hole. No water hazards on the day we played as it was all dried up (Florida heat). Benches at certain holes. There is a nice play area for kids, where there was even a shaved ice vendor. Park was busy the day we were there, but not enough to slow you down as the park is big enough to support all types of groups. A really nice park for all ages. There is even a RC and BMX track next to hole #2. Holes A-F are located once you reach hole 14, making the course a total of 24 holes. With elevation on both slopes, woods, open long drives and dog legs to the left and right you really can't find much here you cannot play or even enjoy. Something for everyone at this course.
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2 3
fsunjm08
Experience: 17.6 years 3 played 3 reviews
4.50 star(s)

Getting Better and Better 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Mar 15, 2012 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

Unbelievable Variety, esp. for a course in FL, great mix of
-Uphill / Downhill
-Backhand / Sidearm
-Open / Wooded
-Short / Long

Improvements are constantly being made on this course to make it more and more interesting. A year ago they added a 600ft plus bomb of a tee shot par 4 that I look forward to every time I play. A week ago they added an elevated basket that sits 8 feet off the ground.

Beautiful Park and Friendly Locals

Multiple Pins and Pads to make for a fun and challenging course for all skill sets

Cons:

They are working on getting better signage out there because right now it is not the best.

Other Thoughts:

Really picky disc golfers need to stop whining about the par 3.5s on this course and throw a good tee shot. The hilliest disc golf course in Florida
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5 0
ZMan44
Gold level trusted reviewer
Experience: 20 years 179 played 107 reviews
3.50 star(s)

Strenuous Round for Florida 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Nov 17, 2011 Played the course:once

Pros:

Tom Brown Park has 24 fairly unique holes. The additional 6 holes blended in with the rest of the course very well. The design loops back to the parking area after 9 holes.

There are some wooded holes that are definitely challenging, though most of the course is open.

This course used elevation better than any other course in Florida that I have played. Usually, there is not much elevation available for use, but there is at Tom Brown Park, and the designers used it well.

There are plenty of trees to provide shade, but it can still get rather hot.

Cons:

Occasionally it was very difficult to see the pin from the basket, or to identify the ideal line. Hole 1 stands out. I remember throwing my drive and then looking for the basket. After finding the basket, I thought "how the heck do you get over there?" I honestly took a fairway driver and threw it low to the ground as hard as I could from about 80 feet out. It cut through the underbrush and made it safely to about 10 feet...though this should not be the ideal path.

There are a couple of holes that are in the open areas where multiple baskets are visible from the tee. If you've never played there, you kind of have to scout them out because it's easy to pick the wrong one. Contacting a guide would be helpful.

For a park that didn't seem to have a whole lot of other things going on, there were a number of non-disc golfers. Maybe many folks use it for walking. There was one young couple having a picnic in the middle of a fairway on the back 9. Another young lady was reading a book within 30 feet of the basket on a back 9 hole. The lady moved, but the couple refused so we just threw over them...they were only about 200 feet away so we cleared them pretty easily.

Other Thoughts:

Wind plays a major factor at this course. In the open areas, gusty winds can make it difficult. This is neither a Pro nor a Con given that it is an element of the game.

When I see "moderately hilly" for a Floridian course, I don't get too worries...but this round was a workout. There is some significant elevation change on the holes and traversing hillsides can wear you out quickly, especially in the Floridian heat. My suggestion is to down size your bag. You don't need 20+ discs to play this course well, and lugging that many around will affect you here. I played with my fully loaded Lat64 Pro Bag...and boy did I regret it. My calves were on fire.

Try to stop and refuel after 9 holes. You will probably feel fine, but the extra 6 holes are on the backside, and that part of the course has the most hills. In essence, you won't be back to the car for 15 holes, which is almost a regular course. Be prepared, it gets hot and the hike is much more strenuous.

Tom Brown Park is an above average course. It has some solid design elements. I didn't really get a feeling of repetition, even though the course is mostly open. It doesn't really have that "wow" factor or couple of amazing holes that would push it to "excellent" status, but it is a really solid course. I am an FSU student studying online and had the opportunity to play while I was in town for a scholarship dinner. I got there early in order to play some disc golf, and was not disappointed. This is a good spot, and worth checking out if you are in the area.
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2 3
scottgopre
Experience: 13.1 years 66 played 4 reviews
4.00 star(s)

TBP Review 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Sep 3, 2011 Played the course:5+ times

Pros:

-This course offers a good deal of different holes to play on.
-Well maintained course.
-Free to play.
-Good for all levels of players, whether your first time playing, or seasoned pro.
-Some short holes to test CTP abilities.
-Some long holes to test your distance power.

Cons:

-You might get behind a big slow group.
-Stand a chance to be searching for a disc in the woods.
-Not every hole has signage to show layout of the hole.
-Pedestrians and cyclists may stroll through during play.

Other Thoughts:

Tallahasse Parks & Rec. is working on the signage problem.
The course changes from time to time to keep you on your toes (several holes have multiple pin placements).
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2 1
w8nforhim
Experience: 15.2 years 75 played 20 reviews
4.00 star(s)

Close to home 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Aug 3, 2011 Played the course:once

Pros:

I am visiting from Virginia, and was pleasantly surprised to play a course very similar to Bryant Park back in Richmond, VA. Playing Tom Brown, you can tell that great thought went into designing the course, with the different layouts and hole designs. This course offers a little of everything. There are a couple of monster 400+ holes that really give you an opportunity to see what your favorite driver can do. Hole #9 is particularly memorable as you tee off from the top of a hill and watch your disc soar below. The course also offers a wide variety of straight in front, dog leg left and dog leg right designs. There are also a few shorter holes to give your midrange discs a feel. The course has concrete pads for all of the holes almost every hole has a pro and Am tee pad.

Cons:

The course could benefit from better signs, showing you the hole layout and possibly pointing you towards the next tee pad.

Other Thoughts:

An excellent course that is worth playing again and again. I only wish it were closer to home!
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1 1
Sandman01
Experience: 9 played 9 reviews
3.50 star(s)

Great Locals 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 4, 2005 Played the course:once

Pros:

I was on the road and stopped by this course on a Saturday morning and was lucky enough to play the weekly mini. A great group of friendly golfers.

Liked most of the holes as plays in a very active public park (con as well). The friendly club was more then enough to make up for any cons. Good mix of open and wooded shots with some low ceiling drives if my memories serve me right.

Cons:

Active public park so have to watch out for walkers/joggers/picnics etc.

When I played the course was still being worked on and had tone baskets in the woods but were still fun to play.

Other Thoughts:

Would like to come back and throw this park again to see all the improvements and hopefully be able to play the mini again. Thanks to the club for allowing me a chance to play in your mini.
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4 1
stsren
Bronze level trusted reviewer
Experience: 24.2 years 38 played 22 reviews
4.00 star(s)

In a word - FUN! 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:Jun 13, 2010 Played the course:once

Pros:

1 - Good use of elevation changes (Baskets located uphill, downhill, on hillsides, with drop-offs just past basket or before basket)
2 - Variety of shots required (hyzer, anhyzer, turnovers, flicks, even opportunities for well executed hammer throws or thumbers)
3 - Variety of distances to throw (ranging from a paltry sub-200' hole to 400'+ holes, with majority in the 250-350 range.)
4 - Beautiful park with plenty of other activities make it great for families (great playground, bike trail, BMX track, R/C car track, athletic fields, and more)
5 - Very fun to play, due to wide open nature of most fairways.
6 - Good tee boxes (most are cement, some carpet)
7 - Decent tee signs at most holes (see cons)
8 - Park has restroom facilities (may have to walk a ways to get to them)
9 - Great course for beginners (and fun for all skill level players)

Cons:

1 - Slight lack of difficulty (some fairways are "too open")
2 - Not enough benches and garbage cans (yes, this may seem lame to some, but I like a trash can at every other hole and benches at every tee box)
3 - Tee signs do not all have correct distances (or basket locations) on them, especially the holes back in the woods.
4 - Awkward transition from hole 9-10 (across fairway of 18, I think)

Other Thoughts:

I only had the opportunity to play this course once, but there's no doubt that it was really FUN to play. I had a great time, got the chance to go all out on a number of drives without fear of losing my disc, and also had the chance to throw a few technical shots. I enjoyed the more heavily wooded portion of the course, as it forced me to throw some tight lines and face some uphill and downhill conditions that I just don't get to see often, playing in central Florida.

After playing Jack McLean (another fantastic courses!), this course was a breath of fresh air!

If you are in the area, do not miss this course!
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1 1
CubbieBlue
Experience: 22.1 years 102 played 6 reviews
3.50 star(s)

Great Variety! 2+ years drive by

Reviewed: Played on:May 20, 2010 Played the course:once

Pros:

Decent variation, wide open holes, tight fairway holes, short holes and a couple of long holes. Baskets were nice and there was a local who played a round with me and a friend who was very friendly and a great guide around the course, thanks Dave!

Cons:

Needs a couple more longer holes, there was really only one hole I couldn't reach off the drive. The holes in the woods were great, but the holes in the open were really open and did not have much to them. The pads definitely need some work too.
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