Provisional question

[txmxer]

Re:Eagle's provisional on 10 r1.

Eagle landed in the hazard, Carter's throw hits Eagles disc, bumps it forward 2 feet, out of hazard.

He cans the big putt when he plays his lie out of the hazard for 5.

He putts a provisional from the out of hazard location. Makes it and it counts it's a 4. He misses it, putts in for a 5 either way.

If he missed the comeback, and it is subsequently a 6, I assume he has to take the score that is deemed to have been played correctly? Otherwise it would be a misplay?

I ask, because it's pretty much been said that playing a provisional is no harm no foul.

Alternatively, Klein had the supposed OB at MVP a couple of years ago where he should have called provisional from the drop zone. It makes sense not to punish KK twice, but technically the drop zone throw was a misplay. Since DG rules debates seem to focus on exact wording, where in the rules was KK's play from the DZ correct and NOT a misplay?

 

[foxdawg10]

Re:Eagle's provisional on 10 r1.

Eagle landed in the hazard, Carter's throw hits Eagles disc, bumps it forward 2 feet, out of hazard.

He cans the big putt when he plays his lie out of the hazard for 5.

He putts a provisional from the out of hazard location. Makes it and it counts it's a 4. He misses it, putts in for a 5 either way.

If he missed the comeback, and it is subsequently a 6, I assume he has to take the score that is deemed to have been played correctly? Otherwise it would be a misplay?

I ask, because it's pretty much been said that playing a provisional is no harm no foul.

Alternatively, Klein had the supposed OB at MVP a couple of years ago where he should have called provisional from the drop zone. It makes sense not to punish KK twice, but technically the drop zone throw was a misplay. Since DG rules debates seem to focus on exact wording, where in the rules was KK's play from the DZ correct and NOT a misplay?

805.01 Establishing a Position
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 15:32

A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.
A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.

The way I read the rule, Eagle's disc is at rest in the hazard so that is his lie. Whatever his score is from that lie should be his score.

I missed the Klein situation. Was his disc in bounds or out of bounds when it first came to rest?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Question is whether his group or an official saw and agreed that Eagle's disc came to rest in the Hazard before being bumped out. Otherwise, how would the group know whether the disc landed inside or outside of the Hazard once they arrived to see it? I don't think a spotter or spectator can confirm a lie unless they have been deemed an official by the TD.

 

[txmxer]

805.01 Establishing a Position
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 15:32

A thrown disc establishes a position where it first comes to rest.
A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.

The way I read the rule, Eagle's disc is at rest in the hazard so that is his lie. Whatever his score is from that lie should be his score.

I missed the Klein situation. Was his disc in bounds or out of bounds when it first came to rest?

It's a water hole, spotter gave a red flag that he was OB. Rather than walk up to the green and verify, they went with the spotters call, KK threw from the DZ without calling provisional. Disc was actually in bounds.

 

[txmxer]

Question is whether his group or an official saw and agreed that Eagle's disc came to rest in the Hazard before being bumped out. Otherwise, how would the group know whether the disc landed inside or outside of the Hazard once they arrived to see it? I don't think a spotter or spectator can confirm a lie unless they have been deemed an official by the TD.

Agreed, but the spotter was the only reason they knew the disc moved in the first place.

 

[foxdawg10]

Question is whether his group or an official saw and agreed that Eagle's disc came to rest in the Hazard before being bumped out. Otherwise, how would the group know whether the disc landed inside or outside of the Hazard once they arrived to see it? I don't think a spotter or spectator can confirm a lie unless they have been deemed an official by the TD.

This is an honest question. Isn't it the spotters responsibility to determine and mark if a disc lands OB or inbounds, and in or out of the hazard?

 

[txmxer]

My take is the spotter is completely unofficial. They can ignore the spotter if they choose.

 

[ru4por]

This is an honest question. Isn't it the spotters responsibility to determine and mark if a disc lands OB or inbounds, and in or out of the hazard?

A spotter had NO authority to call shots inbounds or out of bounds. This is why I maintain that flags should be verboten. Spotters are there to flag discs to help players find them and maintain pace of play. They cannot determine where discs when out of bounds, they have no say in rules decisions and they cannot decide if a disc is OB or not.

 

[foxdawg10]

A spotter had NO authority to call shots inbounds or out of bounds. This is why I maintain that flags should be verboten. Spotters are there to flag discs to help players find them and maintain pace of play. They cannot determine where discs when out of bounds, they have no say in rules decisions and they cannot decide if a disc is OB or not.

The only reason I even asked that question is that spotters on coverage put on such an energetic show with those green and red flags, it appears to be official and part of the production.

After I posed the question, I read that it is up to the group of players to determine in bounds or out of bounds, and the spotter should not take it personal if the players over ride their call.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The only reason I even asked that question is that spotters on coverage put on such an energetic show with those green and red flags, it appears to be official and part of the production.

After I posed the question, I read that it is up to the group of players to determine in bounds or out of bounds, and the spotter should not take it personal if the players over ride their call.

If the spotters with flags are unsure of the call, they cross the flag handles (in DGPT at least) indicating the disc appears to be on the OB line.

 

[ru4por]

If the spotters with flags are unsure of the call, they cross the flag handles (in DGPT at least) indicating the disc appears to be on the OB line.

Spotters have NO say in any call. Spotters should not have flags...well, tiny survey flags to mark discs, but no large signaling flags. It is confusing and pointless. They should be taken out of the game.

 

[biscoe]

Spotters have NO say in any call. Spotters should not have flags...well, tiny survey flags to mark discs, but no large signaling flags. It is confusing and pointless. They should be taken out of the game.

Disagree- spotter input can be taken by the players should they choose to do it (which they should virtually always do). Spotters save untold amounts of time and debate.

In this case the spotter's input that he saw the disc get knocked inbounds can be ignored by the group should they so choose but can also be taken as truth by the group should they so choose (which imo they ought to).

 

[BillFleming]

Spotters have NO say in any call. Spotters should not have flags...well, tiny survey flags to mark discs, but no large signaling flags. It is confusing and pointless. They should be taken out of the game.

Unless a spotter is designated as an official, they have no OFFICIAL say in the call. However, a spotter is there to provide advice. The showing of the flag is providing ADVICE to the players if the disc is in or out of bounds. The marking of the spot with a flag is providing ADVICE to the players on where the disc went OB (or whatever).

Since the spotter is not a designated official, the players do not have to take the spotter's advice. They make the final decision between themselves.

 

[thatdirtykid]

I think in Eagles case the provisional was borderline pointless, but I agree that if there was doubt about how to make the call it was the right answer.

Lets say he didn't score the same from both lies. It will still be on the card to determine whether or not the disc was hit from a lie in the hazard. The TD or official they go to in order to resolve the provisional cannot make the call since they didn't see it.

The TD/Official would turn back to the card and ask what evidence they had, and guide them in making the call or make it if the card cannot. The spotter and video really cannot be used to make the call.
I was really curious to how that was going to be handled and wanted him to make both putts so that there would be a call to make.




In the Kyle Klein case, it sucks he didn't say provisional, and relied on the spotters information. There would have been no harm in saying provisional in any case that being in bounds is even a possibility.


I am in favor of spotters, not just helping find discs and giving imput on possibilities of a disc crossing inbounds or where it crossed. It adds excitement and helps tell the story so that we can watch players react, whether its knowing their opponent is in bounds and putting pressure on or taking some off and maybe allowing strategy to change down the stretch. Maybe someday we can have all spotters be officials and not the uneducated over excited to make a call without certainty volunteers we often have.

 

[araytx]

Re:Eagle's provisional on 10 r1.

Eagle landed in the hazard, Carter's throw hits Eagles disc, bumps it forward 2 feet, out of hazard.

He cans the big putt when he plays his lie out of the hazard for 5.

He putts a provisional from the out of hazard location. Makes it and it counts it's a 4. He misses it, putts in for a 5 either way.

If he missed the comeback, and it is subsequently a 6, I assume he has to take the score that is deemed to have been played correctly? Otherwise it would be a misplay?

I ask, because it's pretty much been said that playing a provisional is no harm no foul.

Alternatively, Klein had the supposed OB at MVP a couple of years ago where he should have called provisional from the drop zone. It makes sense not to punish KK twice, but technically the drop zone throw was a misplay. Since DG rules debates seem to focus on exact wording, where in the rules was KK's play from the DZ correct and NOT a misplay?

Provisional isn't perfectly "no harm no foul"; there are conditions that need to be met for a provisional and if THOSE are properly followed then it is likely no foul. Simple ultimate outcome:

Last year KK's play was a misplay, plain and simple. He played a lie and made a throw (albeit after assuming spotter's input was correct); then found out wit was the incorrect lie, so that is a practice throw penalty. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen players PROPERLY say, "That throw is pretty close. Even though the spotter called it OB, I am calling my throw from this DZ a provisional -- in CASE it is not OB. Agreed?" That would have been the right thing.

In Eagle's situation (whether we agree or disagree), he likely wanted to be sure he didn't get a penalty either way. So with two distinct lies he decided to play both, calling one a provisional, playing both out. That is professional AND smart imho. When there are two options for your next throw and you're not sure which is correct, play both and call one a provisional, record both scores, get with TD in the end.

Spotters have NO say in any call. Spotters should not have flags...well, tiny survey flags to mark discs, but no large signaling flags. It is confusing and pointless. They should be taken out of the game.

It's not that spotters have no say; it's that they cannot make the OFFICIALL RULING -- only the group can. But they have a say in giving input to the players on the card to help them make a ruling. Often times if players are confused, they get up to the spotter and then the conversation go something like this:

P1:Where'd the blue disc land?
S:Right there (pointing)
P1:Hmm, how did it get there?
S: well, it hit that, caught a blank, ricochet there, and rolled XXXXX X'til it stopped there. Then a wave scooted it over about an inch or two ", etc.
P2, P3: given that info I'm gonna call it it ______ (P1), _____ (P2),what about you?
P4: Based on what I've seen on this course and what I saw today, I think ______, regardless of what the spotter is telling us.

So did the spotter have "no say"; He has some say, he just isn't the decision-maker.

The only reason I even asked that question is that spotters on coverage put on such an energetic show with those green and red flags, it appears to be official and part of the production.

After I posed the question, I read that it is up to the group of players to determine in bounds or out of bounds, and the spotter should not take it personal if the players over ride their call.

AND lastly, don't get me started on flags becoming part of the the production. Two issues --1) some places don't have spotter training or at most it is a minimal 3-4 minutes; and 2) I personally wouldn't ever want an official to become part of the production. I spent over 20 years refereeing and umpiring at all levels from little tikes pee-wee leagues all the way up to division 1 college. The best advice & training I received as an official was this: "The best games are when you go out there and call ____ minutes (or innings or periods, etc.), and at the end of the game the players, coaches, & fans never even noticed you were there. That's you doing the best job you can -- because the participants on the field decided the outcome.

 

[foxdawg10]

Provisional isn't perfectly "no harm no foul"; there are conditions that need to be met for a provisional and if THOSE are properly followed then it is likely no foul. Simple ultimate outcome:

Last year KK's play was a misplay, plain and simple. He played a lie and made a throw (albeit after assuming spotter's input was correct); then found out wit was the incorrect lie, so that is a practice throw penalty. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen players PROPERLY say, "That throw is pretty close. Even though the spotter called it OB, I am calling my throw from this DZ a provisional -- in CASE it is not OB. Agreed?" That would have been the right thing.

In Eagle's situation (whether we agree or disagree), he likely wanted to be sure he didn't get a penalty either way. So with two distinct lies he decided to play both, calling one a provisional, playing both out. That is professional AND smart imho. When there are two options for your next throw and you're not sure which is correct, play both and call one a provisional, record both scores, get with TD in the end.



It's not that spotters have no say; it's that they cannot make the OFFICIALL RULING -- only the group can. But they have a say in giving input to the players on the card to help them make a ruling. Often times if players are confused, they get up to the spotter and then the conversation go something like this:

P1:Where'd the blue disc land?
S:Right there (pointing)
P1:Hmm, how did it get there?
S: well, it hit that, caught a blank, ricochet there, and rolled XXXXX X'til it stopped there. Then a wave scooted it over about an inch or two ", etc.
P2, P3: given that info I'm gonna call it it ______ (P1), _____ (P2),what about you?
P4: Based on what I've seen on this course and what I saw today, I think ______, regardless of what the spotter is telling us.

So did the spotter have "no say"; He has some say, he just isn't the decision-maker.



AND lastly, don't get me started on flags becoming part of the the production. Two issues --1) some places don't have spotter training or at most it is a minimal 3-4 minutes; and 2) I personally wouldn't ever want an official to become part of the production. I spent over 20 years refereeing and umpiring at all levels from little tikes pee-wee leagues all the way up to division 1 college. The best advice & training I received as an official was this: "The best games are when you go out there and call ____ minutes (or innings or periods, etc.), and at the end of the game the players, coaches, & fans never even noticed you were there. That's you doing the best job you can -- because the participants on the field decided the outcome.

To a certain degree, in football and in baseball, the refs and umps ARE a part of the production. They are the link from the field to the fans in stadium and over the air. Same with the spotters in disc golf and on live coverage and post-prod. Having them give signals is better than sitting there listening to the announcers give their best guess on the outcome of a shot.

I agree with you that the game should never be about the officials. It always drives me nuts when a plate ump emphatically punches out a batter on the third strike. It appears partial. Just make the call. In basketball and football, the officials have the ability to alter the flow and momentum of game. Phantom holding? No holding? Traveling? Charge or blocking?

At least in disc golf, the spotters can't influence the outcome to that extent.

 

[biscoe]

AND lastly, don't get me started on flags becoming part of the the production. Two issues --1) some places don't have spotter training or at most it is a minimal 3-4 minutes; and 2) I personally wouldn't ever want an official to become part of the production. I spent over 20 years refereeing and umpiring at all levels from little tikes pee-wee leagues all the way up to division 1 college. The best advice & training I received as an official was this: "The best games are when you go out there and call ____ minutes (or innings or periods, etc.), and at the end of the game the players, coaches, & fans never even noticed you were there. That's you doing the best job you can -- because the participants on the field decided the outcome.

Spotter training for my events (3-4 minutes seems excessive ):
This is your hole, here are your flags.
These are the rules and how they work and what to watch out for.
Don't pick up/touch any discs until the players have seen where it is.
The players can overrule you- if they do just smile and let them continue on.
Don't make yourself part of the show or I will kick you in the nads.
What would you like for lunch?

 

[roblee]

These are clever & useful. One tweak suggestion to #3:

Spotter training for my events (3-4 minutes seems excessive ):
This is your hole, here are your flags.
These are the rules and how they work and what to watch out for.
Don't pick up/touch any discs until the position has been determined by the card and the player who threw it asks you to.
The players can overrule you- if they do just smile and let them continue on.
Don't make yourself part of the show or I will kick you in the nads.
What would you like for lunch?

 

[araytx]

To a certain degree, in football and in baseball, the refs and umps ARE a part of the production. They are the link from the field to the fans in stadium and over the air. Same with the spotters in disc golf and on live coverage and post-prod. Having them give signals is better than sitting there listening to the announcers give their best guess on the outcome of a shot.

You are missing my point. Them making the appropriate signals (safe/out, homerun, touchdown, holding, incomplete/complete, red card/yellow card) etc. are part of the game. When I say they should be part of "the production" I am talking about officials doing things that call more attention to themselves as officials than the players. The game is about the people playing/managing/prepping/etc. the game. So yes the excessive punch out on a called third strike, etc. -- not really the thing I nor the officials who trained me wanted. We AREN'T supposed to be noticed in that context. Similar, a spotter with a simple signal of IB/OB/not sure is fine; but when the 8-holes hole two flag persons on a 315' shot and a maybe 100 square foot green running around in circles, that's a bit much. That is the flag-people wanting in on the show that is supposed to be about the players.

I agree with you that the game should never be about the officials. It always drives me nuts when a plate ump emphatically punches out a batter on the third strike. It appears partial. Just make the call. In basketball and football, the officials have the ability to alter the flow and momentum of game. Phantom holding? No holding? Traveling? Charge or blocking?

At least in disc golf, the spotters can't influence the outcome to that extent.

I may have solution for disc golf … just haven't had opportunity to work it in yet – and NO – this isn't the forum to bring it up.