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SW22: disc velocity theory/tip of the whip

txmxer

* Ace Member *
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
3,954
Location
Texas
The grip thread got me thinking.

The last 6(?) inches of the throw when the wrist breaks is where the speed really amplifies. The release involves the least amount of movement for the most travel (acceleration).

Human kinetics limit velocity.

The pull to the pocket then to the release are about how much a person can accelerate the forearm and hand in a straight-ish line.

If we have high res video from the side, we can estimate the speed of the disc in that straightline before the "whip".

I think this data would be interesting in the quest to understand distance.

Compare the straightline speed of the disc to the speed in the air upon release and ultimately distance.

As seen in the Simon video, nose angle is critical as well.

Part of my point (theory) is the pull is much less critical than that snap.

Thoughts?
 
I'm think it could be useful and interesting. Sounds like you are kind of talking about Smash Factor which would be disc speed divided by hand speed, and the Linear Kinematic Sequence.
The Linear Kinematic Sequence

"It is known that there is an efficient sequence of motion in a skilled golf swing called the Kinematic Sequence. It describes the proximal-to-distal sequencing of the rotation speeds of the body segments. Each body segment; pelvis, ribcage and arm sequentially accelerates and decelerates before impact, starting from the inner large body segments; the pelvis and ribcage, then progressing to the smaller outer segments; the arms, hands and club. Each successive segment peaks faster and later than the previous segment. This action causes the club to accelerate rapidly and reach its highest speed at impact. Figure 1 shows the graph of the rotational Kinematic Sequence of a world class golfer and includes images of his position at each peak speed point in the downswing.

1173a_kinematicv3.jpg


It is also known that the golf swing is not only rotational; it has a linear component of motion as well. Therefore it would make sense that there is also a linear kinematic sequence during the downswing, and in fact there is. Figure 2 shows the linear Kinematic Sequence graph of a world class golfer. It shows the linear speed of his lead hip, lead shoulder, mid-hands and club head.

1173a_kinematicv5.jpg


Look in the shaded gray area of Figure 2 and notice how, during the downswing, the lead hip accelerates (goes up) and reaches its peak speed first, then decelerates (goes down), followed by the lead shoulder, the mid-hands and finally the club. Notice that these accelerations and decelerations are all before impact and that the only segment that doesn't decelerate prior to impact is the club head. As we would expect, the club head accelerates during the downswing and reaches max speed at impact. Notice that each successive peak speed occurs later in the downswing than the previous one and is faster than the previous one.

In fact, it is not as important what the speeds of the joints are at impact but what their maximum speeds are earlier in the downswing. We expect their speeds at impact to be lower because of the deceleration phase of each joint as it passes energy to the next segment - each joint is slowed down by the interaction force of the next segment accelerating against it. Take for example the mid-hands curve. You see that its highest speed is 22.6 mph and its speed at impact is 19 mph. For the mid-hands curve, the deceleration is related to the explosiveness of the release. The faster the release of the wrists the more the deceleration and the slower the hands will be at impact. It is a nice example of the action-reaction law of motion; the force of the club releasing causes and opposite force on the hands causing the lead arm to slow down. This means that measuring hand speed at impact may be misleading. It's better to know what the peak hand speed was earlier in the downswing. From our research at TPI we have compiled a tour pro database and from this database, we have found that the average peak mid-hands speed in the downswing is 22.0 mph and the average mid-hands speed at impact is 17.6 mph."
© Phil Cheetham
https://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the_linear_kinematic_sequence

Comments:
"Great job Phil In the linear swing the hips job is to swivel to accomidate the levers which produce most of the power in this swing, so yes there is rotation its just not the main force."
Glenn Deck(PGA Top 100 Instructor) 3/25/2014 11:49 PM

"Rotational is secondary to the linear component (per Mike Austin)"
Anonymous User 3/20/2014 2:06 PM
 
That's exactly the kind of survey I'm talking about. I would love to see the top throwers broken down in a similar fashion.

Not a perfectly straight line, but I think it illustrates your point about the sequence.

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The last 6(?) inches of the throw when the wrist breaks is where the speed really amplifies...

...Part of my point (theory) is the pull is much less critical than that snap.

Thoughts?

Blake_t would agree. He wrote the following in the thread "Disc Golf the secret technique... Almost complete":

- most body motions are over-rated. i've found a 20 degree body rotation with no reach back can still yield a 275'+ throw with a small arm twitch and using no leg power. increasing the body rotation on reach back to 90 degrees seems to add about 40' (~15%). adding 18"+ of reach back seems to add about 25' (~9%). adding a full run up adds about 40' (~15%). those three things together are noticeable but if you work from a 275' baseline with a midrange disc, a full body rotation, full reach back, and utilizing the legs are responsible for roughly 27.6% of the throw. read as: about 10" of motion mainly focusing on the wrist, hand, and fingers is roughly 72.4% of the throw.
 
Seems like the impact part of that golf graph is a known, as the face of the club contacts the ball.

With disc golf, what it the last part of the body to have contact with the disc? Don't say "the hand", be more specific. If it's a power grip, which finger? Group of fingers? Is that group of fingers or finger the last lever? Does the disc spin off of that fulcrum? Or do you literally pinch the dic and that grip breaks? What then happens with the other fingers in the grip?
 
Blake_t would agree. He wrote the following in the thread "Disc Golf the secret technique... Almost complete":

- most body motions are over-rated. i've found a 20 degree body rotation with no reach back can still yield a 275'+ throw with a small arm twitch and using no leg power. increasing the body rotation on reach back to 90 degrees seems to add about 40' (~15%). adding 18"+ of reach back seems to add about 25' (~9%). adding a full run up adds about 40' (~15%). those three things together are noticeable but if you work from a 275' baseline with a midrange disc, a full body rotation, full reach back, and utilizing the legs are responsible for roughly 27.6% of the throw. read as: about 10" of motion mainly focusing on the wrist, hand, and fingers is roughly 72.4% of the throw.

I think I saw that.

Because my form sucks, I get pretty close to max d with just a half step. Meaning I setup in my release step beck with my lead foot and then forward throw. Kind of like a pitchers wind up.

I know I've got to address nose up throws as well. Really trying to fix that.
 
I am stuck at the nose up phase, too. I throw exclusively standstills with a range between 250 with a flat release and 300 on a controlled flex line. I can't seem to figure out how to get the nose down. ☹️
 
I am stuck at the nose up phase, too. I throw exclusively standstills with a range between 250 with a flat release and 300 on a controlled flex line. I can't seem to figure out how to get the nose down. ☹️

One of my more recent finds, someone was talking about the release and Ricky was the example. His arm is moving forward and slightly up. The disc is pointing up. As it pivots, the lower backend becomes the front of the disc on release so it's actually nose down.

I think it's largely in the wrist angle. I have tried to work in it some, but now I'm injured.

Hope that made sense. I think it's key.
 
There was a comment by Dr. Scott Lynn on one of those golf and force pad threads mentioned recently.

He said that amateur golfers are often in the pro range for linear forces but far behind for rotational. This might be where the requirements for ball golf and disc golf are different. But for the ball golfers it seems to be easy to get translation working but not rotation.
 
Seems like the impact part of that golf graph is a known, as the face of the club contacts the ball.

With disc golf, what it the last part of the body to have contact with the disc?

Does the disc spin off of that fulcrum? Or do you literally pinch the dic and that grip breaks?

If the disc rips off the hand, then isn't the hand applying a force to the disc? (by Newton's equal and opposite)

And if the the disc is moving forward and rips out of the hand, isn't the force applied by the hand demonstrably backward, against the motion of the disc?
 
If the disc rips off the hand, then isn't the hand applying a force to the disc? (by Newton's equal and opposite)

And if the the disc is moving forward and rips out of the hand, isn't the force applied by the hand demonstrably backward, against the motion of the disc?

Do forward and backward cover it? Does a fulcrum exhibit a backward force on a bar?

I suspect it is a relatively stationary pivot point. My first approach to a power grip was to make as compact a fulcrum point as possible. I think this is wrong headed, though.
 
Do forward and backward cover it? Does a fulcrum exhibit a backward force on a bar?

.

Good point, these motions are at least on a curve and to some extent probably 3D.

But contrast two feelings. You can feel like your fingers are pulling in the target direction on the inside of the rim of the disc, but that doesn't give you much distance.

If you feel the disc rip out of your hand, then you feel significant force on your finger and there's no way that is toward the target. Also there's a good bit of abrasion and you may get a callus or blister.

I think there's a good chance that a rip point your fulcrum finger is moving at an angle away from the target line, maybe around 90 degrees right of it.
 
Feels to me like the optimal launch approaches the delta dirac function in terms of generating disc velocity at a single moment.

1300px-Dirac_distribution_PDF.svg-56aeb7423df78cf772bd6898.png


That is, all that matters is max velocity when the disc is pointed where it needs to go.

What Txmx and SW22 highlight is that there is a superposition (stuff adds up independently) principle in play on all these layers of how the velocity is generated.

Velocity is generated with hips/legs, torso, arm, forearm, wrist, and perhaps fingers, each in their own way. Timing is essential because the additive aspect of each muscle's contribution needs to be aligned in time so that the peak velocity is at one moment, the moment of release.

So many of my gains come from not trying to generate more power--not from trying to bench press my max--but rather from not getting in my own way in terms of tightness inhibiting the overlapping contributions from aligning properly. Staying really loose is essential on a high speed throw.

But it's tough, because of all the biomechanical savagery being committed. The body wants to remain stable and in control. The body naturally opposes some of the crazy action being done to create this timing/whip/superposition of forces.

Saying that wrist/tip is most critical makes a lot of sense--not saying I agree with hand/wrist/grip being the most contributive--but in theory, if we are trying to replicate a delta-dirac function, then the most critical phase is when t=0, or in the infinitesimal moments just prior to release, and that is going to be wrist/hand/fingers.
 
Part of my point (theory) is the pull is much less critical than that snap.

Thoughts?

I'll fine tune this just slightly. The first half of the throw, from peak reach back until the disc first crosses your body, is much less critical as the second half of the throw, from the disc crossing your body, into the hit (elbow bent at 90 degrees) and through the whip into ejection.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112483



HuB spoke about this on YouTube and gave me the idea. He basically said that the first half of your swing, the speed doesn't matter at all, and slow is better because it allows your body and hips to get into motion. I'll try and dig the video up. But what I found most important for me is that I was pulling too fast initially, which had me coming forward waaaay too fast that no amount of bracing could support. Once I slowed that down bracing became easy.

So focus on the initial half of your pull. Really slow that part down and you'll find that your body and hips catch up then get in front of you, so to speak, then whipping the disc out is a lot easier.
 
I'm think it could be useful and interesting. Sounds like you are kind of talking about Smash Factor which would be disc speed divided by hand speed, and the Linear Kinematic Sequence.

2 questions:
Is the speed of release equivalent to the volume of a towel crack? I assume so; the faster the whip the louder the crack.

If so, would the speed of release be proportional to the rate of deceleration up through the kinematic sequence?
For instance, when I snap a towel, I can get the loudest crack when I really pull backwards hard. Does the same principal apply to the swing/crack of the dg swing?
 
2 questions:
Is the speed of release equivalent to the volume of a towel crack? I assume so; the faster the whip the louder the crack.

If so, would the speed of release be proportional to the rate of deceleration up through the kinematic sequence?
For instance, when I snap a towel, I can get the loudest crack when I really pull backwards hard. Does the same principal apply to the swing/crack of the dg swing?

A towel snap can be analogous to the swing, or way, way off base. At least, this is how it seems to me trying to relate a towel to the swing.

Whipping someone's ass with a towel in the way most people picture it is not relevant. When I have used a towel to play around, its always like a washcloth, and there is no backwards pull at the end. You can still crack that thing hard without the backwards pull, using actual full blown backhand swing technique.
 
A towel snap can be analogous to the swing, or way, way off base. At least, this is how it seems to me trying to relate a towel to the swing.

Whipping someone's ass with a towel in the way most people picture it is not relevant. When I have used a towel to play around, its always like a washcloth, and there is no backwards pull at the end. You can still crack that thing hard without the backwards pull, using actual full blown backhand swing technique.

Well now this is bugging me because I just played with a washcloth for a bit. There is certainly no deliberate, big backwards motion like I personally do with a full size towel.

But, I think what actually cracks the washcloth is a bounce that does the same basic thing, its just far smaller and still succumbs to a follow-through. I have never really dissected the towel stuff much just played with it a bit because you DO crack the **** out of a washcloth with the same form you can throw a disc with.
 
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