Discmania Gremlin (GM)

[gkeberhart]

Does anyone know what this disc would act like in terms of Innova/Discraft discs (dont say Gremlin for this answer either, I know Innova made it first) and are there any plans for it to get PDGA approval?

[billnchristy]

According to Dave D. it is approved.

People will say Panther but I don't think so.

[gkeberhart]

According to Dave D. it is approved.

People will say Panther but I don't think so.

I didnt see it on the last PDGA approved list, but that is also like 3-4 months old

[zenbot]

Per our expert threeputt it isn't approved.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12615&highlight=gremlin

[billnchristy]

I asked Dave on the PDGA board, he said it didn't need resubmittal, the discs name, he claimed is still the Gremlin, as shown on the DX version (whatever DM calls it). The abbreviated name is GM but the disc is still called gremlin, therefore still approved.

Just the messenger here.

[zenbot]

I asked Dave on the PDGA board, he said it didn't need resubmittal, the discs name, he claimed is still the Gremlin, as shown on the DX version (whatever DM calls it). The abbreviated name is GM but the disc is still called gremlin, therefore still approved.

Just the messenger here.
Hmm. I believe you and I believe Dave. It just sounds funny.

That whole process is funny.

[billnchristy]

Yeah it seemed odd to me too but I guess technically all DGA discs should be approved as Discraft right?

[Three Putt]

According to Dave D. it is approved.I asked the PDGA, and the answer was "no."

[billnchristy]

Lame^

On Dave's part.

Of course its the mega-giant, nobody will eff with them about it.

[gkeberhart]

is there any intention to get it approved

[Three Putt]

I asked Dave on the PDGA board, he said it didn't need resubmittal, the discs name, he claimed is still the Gremlin, as shown on the DX version (whatever DM calls it). The abbreviated name is GM but the disc is still called gremlin, therefore still approved.

Just the messenger here.OK, here is what I know.

When the disc came out, the word "gremlin" was used just to tell people it was the same mold. At that time the Discmania discs had not yet added the pictures of zombies to their discs, so there was no "Gremlin" on the first-run GM's. Furthermore, the press releases at that time called the disc the "GM (Greater Midrange.)" At that time the disc should have been submitted for approval because it clearly was not being marketed as a "Gremlin."

Now they have added the zombie pictures to the Discmania discs, and the GM is now being marketed as the "GM (Gremlin.)" Because the PDGA has allowed Discraft to carry the approval for DGA discs like the Rogue, it opens the door for the possibility that Innova can carry a Discmania approval. So Innova might be able to CTA on the back end with the Gremlin name. It all depends on what the PDGA decides, and so far as I know they have not decided anything. So right now I'd have to say it is not approved but might be, depending. There is a lot of gray area there.

Personally I don't care which way it goes. It seems like a waste of time to approve the Gremlin again, but it's a slippery slope of what you will and will not let manufacturers get away with. What if GDS went out of business and sold its molds to Discraft? Can Discraft sell a Discraft Wizard under the GDS approval? Where is the line? Right now the line is blurry at best.

At any rate, the disc was clearly illegal when it was released because it was clearly was being called the "GM (Greater Midrange.)" It should have been submitted then. Dave D. does have a case for saying it's OK now IMO, but what discs are and are not legal needs to be decided by the PDGA, not Innova. So far as I know, that has not happened.

The main guy for the approval of new discs is out of the country on business, and that is why the list has not been updated in a few months. When he gets back he probably will have a stack of discs waiting for him to be approved. The GM issue will probably be addressed then.

[billnchristy]

I agree with what you say. I also agree that it should be re-approved because, as you said, where does the line get drawn? I also think that if what you say is true (which I do not doubt) then there should be some sort of action taken against DM/Innova because just printing PDGA approved on your discs without a legitimate approval is deceitful whether or not it is intended to be.

Imagine winning your first tourney by making a long approach putt with your GM and as you raise your arms and disc up to celebrate some D-bag points it out and you get DQ'd.

Not freaking cool. Unlikely scenario, but it IS possible.

[Fender088]

The knowledge you guys possess hurts my brain sometimes

[zenbot]

The knowledge you guys possess hurts my brain sometimes
That's good. It's like how you're sore after a workout.

[gkeberhart]

yea I didnt think about the tournament deal, I know I have seen some Discmania at tournaments and possibly a GM but I am not going to try and DQ a guy for the fact that Innova/Discmania screwed up I will just give him a heads up about it and let him play at his own risk probably

[Three Putt]

It's the inherent flaw in the system. The TD's have to enforce the rules, but I'm willing to bet 99.99% of TD's will have no clue that there is an issue with the GM and would just glance at it and say "it says PDGA approved." 99.999999999% of players don't know or care that there is an issue with the GM. So it is a very remote possibility that a TD would do anything to you for using one, and an even more remote possibility that anyone would say anything to a TD if you used one in the first place. Being from this area, I know guys who have played in PDGA events using Gateway prototypes of discs that never got approved and no one said a peep. I'm sure if I lived in Michigan I'd hear the same thing about players using Discraft prototypes, or if I was in LA I'd hear it about Innova prototypes, yada, yada, yada. Enforcement of the legal disc standards is spotty at best, non-existent at worst.

A TD's should not let this stuff bite them on the back end anyway. If I'm was TDing a sanctioned event today I'd announce in the players meeting that the Gateway Warrior and Discmania GM are not approved and not allowed in my tournament. That makes it pretty black and white up front.

[gkeberhart]

I didnt know the Warrior wasn't approved, when did this happen because I thought it used to be approved

[billnchristy]

Oh ****it there goes the GM/Warrior PDGA Challenge I was running next weekend. ;)

[rhino21]

Is that all warriors? Or just the retooled ones? And then, how do you tell the difference?
So many questions!

[gkeberhart]

Is that all warriors? Or just the retooled ones? And then, how do you tell the difference?
So many questions!

I know, time to go find a replacement for my Warrior now...looks like the Roc is working double duty for now

[zenbot]

How would you even know what disc it is if there's no stamp? Some Discraft have the mold listed but most discs don't.

[Three Putt]

I didnt know the Warrior wasn't approved, when did this happen because I thought it used to be approvedIt's another loophole. The rule is that you can change a mold and leave the name the same and the new disc is legal, but that rule assumes that the diameter stays the same. With the new Warrior, the diameter of the new disc is much larger than the approved one. GDS is selling discs that are 182g and saying they are legal when the approved list says the disc is legal to 175g. The numbers are so far off that the PDGA said the disc need to be re-certified. So far GDS has not re-submitted the disc, so all of the large diameter Warriors are illegal until they do that.

You can see why this needs to be done if you reverse the situation. Lets say GDS decided to bring back the Element X name on a small-diameter driver. The loophole would allow a 21.0 cm diameter disc to be legal up to 182g. That would clearly be against the rules.

[gkeberhart]

that is messed up

[bikinjack]

You can see why this needs to be done if you reverse the situation. Lets say GDS decided to bring back the Element X name on a small-diameter driver. The loophole would allow a 21.0 cm diameter disc to be legal up to 182g. That would clearly be against the rules.

Is the new Warrior not very similar/the same thing as the old Element X? I could be and probably am wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.

[mashnut]

Is the new Warrior not very similar/the same thing as the old Element X? I could be and probably am wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.


Whether or not that's true, it still leaves that loophole open threeputt mentions.

[bikinjack]

Whether or not that's true, it still leaves that loophole open threeputt mentions.

Yeah, I know, but I'm just curious if anyone (or just ThreePutt) knows if this is true, or I just dreamed it up.

[Three Putt]

Is the new Warrior not very similar/the same thing as the old Element X? I could be and probably am wrong, but I think I read that somewhere.Yeah, the new Warrior is just a retool of the Element X. I'm sure it conforms to the Technical Standards and will be approved once it is submitted. The last time I heard it had not been submitted. The GM obviously conforms with the Technical Standards, there is just the open question of whether the Gremlin approval covers it or not.

On the one hand this all is no big deal, the discs conform with the rules and are not giving anyone an unfair advantage even if they are technically illegal. On the other hand, rules are rules.

[bikinjack]

Thanks, ThreePutt. If I ever play in a sanctioned tourney, I won't carry any Warriors, unless it gets approved. It's crazy how they put "P.D.G.A. Approved" on the stamp, and it isn't approved. It makes me wonder if the powers that be at GDS even realize they need to re-submit it or if they just don't care.

[gkeberhart]

I am sure Dave knows that he needs to resubmit the disc but with the way he runs things it might be ages before that happens. I dont even think he has sent the Ninja in yet and that disc was supposed to be in shops a few weeks ago (havent seen it though)

[PWaggoner]

Who is tossing this/ has?

[geo_08]

I have, but prefer the kaxe in the same sort of tweer, but feels like a mid slot.

What would you like to know?

[PWaggoner]

How does it compare to a roc?

Keep hearing about the kaxe too. Id like to try both, but not sure if they would fit my play.

Im not a big fan of buzzz/ truth type mids in my bag, is the GM and kaxe similar in feel to those?

[jdw80550]

gm was a fine disc, closer in speed to a hornet or gazelle, just didn't need the inbetween spot it took up.

[rallyguy]

GM would probably feel closer to a roc, IIRC they have a bigger bead than the Kaxe.

[geo_08]

How does it compare to a roc?

Keep hearing about the kaxe too. Id like to try both, but not sure if they would fit my play.

Im not a big fan of buzzz/ truth type mids in my bag, is the GM and kaxe similar in feel to those?

The kaxe z will fly closer to those two than the Kaxe

gm was a fine disc, closer in speed to a hornet or gazelle, just didn't need the inbetween spot it took up.

This is essentially while there are talks of the Gazelle going OOP. I find discs like these useful for tight shots with low ceilings.

GM would probably feel closer to a roc, IIRC they have a bigger bead than the Kaxe.

The kaxe Z has no bead though.

[rallyguy]

True...I've only thrown the Kaxe but am wanting to try the Z as well. Probably when RDG gets them stamped.

To stay kind of on topic the gremlin I had was a little domey, and pretty straight with late fade

[geo_08]

Mine was similar to rallguy's. I haven't seen a flat one of that is your thing. They have all been pretty HSS when new.

[Kodachrome]

Weird gremlins I found today. See through, but they say s-line. Looks a lot more like milky champ plastic. Almost wanted to buy them just to buy them.

[Kodachrome]

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p740/Kodachrome2001/IMAG0811_zpsdznn7dnd.jpg

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p740/Kodachrome2001/IMAG0809_zps43xbnzkt.jpg


Are these.....speeeeeecial?

Also seems that these fly like a faster roc, yes?

[dehaas]

How flat are they? That was my biggest beef with newer gremlins, a lot more domey than the old flat ones.

[Kodachrome]

These are just as domey as all the rest of the s lines, appear to be the same disc. Wonder if they got caught in a transition. Usually when you see this stuff it's labeled as champ, it's way beyond champy star IMO.

[DanJon]

The appearance is probably due to the light weight.

[Kodachrome]

That's what I thought initially, but there are plenty of 168 without that weirdness. Anyway, they're on the shelf and I'm leaving so if you want a pair of unique gm they're at gggt.

[DanJon]

Interesting, it would be a 2-3 hour drive for me so probably not today.

[DinosaurThunder]

Interesting, it would be a 2-3 hour drive for me so probably not today.

If you call and describe the discs they will pick them for you!

[JamesXC]

My experience has been that most of the S-line GMs are that Champ/Star blend. I really with that plastic was available on the rest of the Innova/Discmania lineup as I would be all over Teebirds/PDs in that blend.

[Mulligan]

I think the ChampyStar blend of DM Gremlins is from the first run of them... I had two but didn't like them cause they were a little too slick and oily feeling. They were that transparent and near max weight.
I had another Star DM Gremlin that was a tie dye and just like regular Innova Star and was 168g, too.

[PMantle]

If mine didn't have S on it, I would have sworn it was champ.