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Moify
01-20-2012, 11:17 AM
I traded for a disc that I'm confused about. Ultimately, I realize the difference between a SOLS and a S - OS probably aren't substantial, but I couldn't find a clear answer online.

The disc has manufacturer marks that say "S - OS," but the stamp is Sirius Orion LS. I read here (http://www.discnation.com/Millennium-Orion-SOS-Sirius-Bar-Stamp-Disc-Golf-Collectible-Discs.html) that the SOSs were only bar stamped and not actually PDGA approved. Then why would I get a SOLS stamp with an SOS marking and disc ID?

ManU
01-20-2012, 12:34 PM
you might want to search the Millennium thread on DGR...I know this has been discussed there
ZAMson will know the answer...but has answered it sooo many times he might not want a PM about it...especially since his information on it is in the Millennium thread over there

I think, but stand to be corrected, that this was a buggered up mold by Innova for Millennium (think Teedevil (Vulcan/Destroyer) without the PDGA approval)

I can't remember what wing and top they used

the one you have may (again I stand to be corrected) be one the excess that got sent to Wal-Mart or some such

booter
01-20-2012, 01:19 PM
valk top / fb wing. a valk x pretty much. very pd like. its a nice disc. kthxbai

steve a
01-20-2012, 01:26 PM
They were sold through Walmarts with the Orion LS stamp. The disc says pdga approved on it so I guess its good to go.

Spinthrift
01-20-2012, 01:59 PM
The disc says pdga approved on it so I guess its good to go.

Tain't so. The disc was apparently a molding mistake and was never approved, which is the reason it's out of my bag for any PDGA events. I've got 5 or 6 of them and like them very much. IMO, it's one of the best mid-speed distance drivers out there, and I agree with booter it's very PDish.

steve a
01-20-2012, 02:09 PM
Tain't so. The disc was apparently a molding mistake and was never approved, which is the reason it's out of my bag for any PDGA events. I've got 5 or 6 of them and like them very much. IMO, it's one of the best mid-speed distance drivers out there, and I agree with booter it's very PDish.

It's approved and released as an Orion LS. The approval follows the name of the disc and slight tweaks have been ok in the past. Example: Eagle L and X and the different starfire molds (not the SL).

ZAMson
01-20-2012, 02:11 PM
shady business from the old millennium. they were sold as SOLS in walmart and put into Worlds Biggest at least one year.

it's not PDGA approved.

steve a
01-20-2012, 03:46 PM
shady business from the old millennium. they were sold as SOLS in walmart and put into Worlds Biggest at least one year.

it's not PDGA approved.

It says on the disc pdga approved.

Is the starfire pdga approved in its current mold? How about all the versions of the destroyer? Were both Eagles sent in for approval? This could probably use its own thread. How many molds have not been sent in?

Spinthrift
01-20-2012, 03:57 PM
It says on the disc pdga approved.


It does, in fact, say PDGA approved on the bottom piece of the mold, which is a Firebird wing. Which means the Firebird is approved. But I'm parrotting what has been stated many times on the DGR thread. ZAMson, who worked at Millennium, is giving it to you straight from the horse's mouth (or perhaps another part of anatomy).

ZAMson
01-20-2012, 04:13 PM
well, i could go stamp a PDGA Approved millennium stamp on a block of wood.

truth is in 2006 or 2007 the official stance of millennium was that these discs were never to go out to the public. it was a mold configuration error, it was NOT the sirius orion ls, and i spent an entire day in the warehouse collecting thousands of them and putting them into storage with labels reading DO NOT SEND OUT - NOT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC.

2 years later they were putting them in walmart with an erroneous stamp that presented the SOS as a no-run-number Sirius Orion LS. the decision was that walmart disc buyers were ignorant enough that this was acceptable. i would have preferred to leave the PDGA Approved off of that particular stamp, because i did process entirely separate stamps for all the of walmart-bound discs. wasn't my choice.

the argument could be made that if someone at millennium wants to call that disc a Sirius Orion LS, the name of an approved model, then that disc is approved. i coulda picked up an SOS and shipped it out as a Barracuda or a Tachyon. doesn't make it right.

an entire run of SOS was shelved and the release of the SOLS was pushed back so that the G4 mold could be run and tested in Sirius. i still have a few of those blank proto SOLS from that test period. then they did the production run and stamped them as SOLS 1.1

so in my opinion, the SOS is not legal. the disc's commissioner once agreed with this and it's been hammered out multiple times on DGR. the SOS has far more in common with a Valkyrie-X than either Orion.

ZAMson
01-20-2012, 04:22 PM
full DISClosure on the OP, i also wrote the description for the product on Disc Nation. i don't rip on manufacturers in that capacity so some details were massaged :)

bar-stamps were in the thousands... hundreds were legitimate-accidentally stamped by Innova for the World's Biggest ones... and i assume the remainder of the run was sent out to walmart with the SOLS stamp. and there WERE true SOLS sent to walmart as well, so you can't lump all walmart SOLS into the SOS category.

it was a boondoggle from the beginning and i don't think there was any shady business about it UNTIL they stamped the SOS as an approved SOLS. that reeked.

steve a
01-20-2012, 06:29 PM
it was a boondoggle from the beginning and i don't think there was any shady business about it UNTIL they stamped the SOS as an approved SOLS. that reeked.

When they did this it became just as approved as many Innova discs done in the same fashion.

Moify
01-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Interesting that Millennium has had so many mix ups over the years. However, I'm not playing tournaments, and if a disc throws well, I'm probably gonna use it. I like all the comparisons to a Valk X and PD.

money 21
01-20-2012, 07:14 PM
i thought when the CD from discmania came out that it was going to be the sos mold. IMO mill made a mistake not getting the SOS approved. i was that they thought it too close to viking to fit the keep it simple moto. great disc though.

AikoAdam
01-21-2012, 01:04 AM
When they did this it became just as approved as many Innova discs done in the same fashion.

Wow, I don't think he could explain this any better for you to understand that it is not approved.

steve a
01-21-2012, 01:23 AM
Wow, I don't think he could explain this any better for you to understand that it is not approved.

Well I want my money back for a disc I bought that said was approved and is not. I would also like a refund on the last Aurora MS I bought that is made out of a different mold as well.

Has the Ion been approved in the both the smaller bead mold and the larger? If not then the newer runs wouldn't be pdga approved either.

AikoAdam
01-21-2012, 05:04 AM
Duly noted. It will be at the front desk at the main office. We will repay you forthwith good sir!

Cgkdisc
01-21-2012, 06:25 PM
Just confirming ZAMson's post that the S-OS has never been submitted for PDGA approval and would not be considered approved for sanctioned play.

steve a
01-21-2012, 09:54 PM
Just confirming ZAMson's post that the S-OS has never been submitted for PDGA approval and would not be considered approved for sanctioned play.

What exactly is required for a retest of a disc to be needed? It seems loosely worded in the rules.

Technical Standards (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_8_1_11.doc.pdf) Section I (E)

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8200/imag0369o.jpg

Looking at my S-OS from the top it is a Sirius Orion LS. It may be slightly different than the originals but so are other discs that have not been retested. Why is this one different? :confused:

TonyAPE12
01-21-2012, 10:31 PM
Well, unless you have the world's biggest jacka** on your card in a tournament, nobody's going to ask you if that's really an SOLS. So why don't you just throw it in your bag and play with it unless the guilt of knowing that you're playing with an illegal disc eats at you too much.

steve a
01-21-2012, 11:00 PM
Well, unless you have the world's biggest jacka** on your card in a tournament, nobody's going to ask you if that's really an SOLS. So why don't you just throw it in your bag and play with it unless the guilt of knowing that you're playing with an illegal disc eats at you too much.

Ethics keep me from cheating. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

zj1002
01-22-2012, 01:49 PM
the only people that would know will be Millennium nuts and team folk. So when you throw a sweet shot and someone asks what disc was that. All you need to respond with is Orion. and when they say which one. you say straight. The only way I would question it would be if I saw the bottom of the disc because I can tell by sight. Pretty sure I would get stroked for going around picking up everyone's SOLS to check

Star Shark
01-22-2012, 05:10 PM
Alright, this thread needs an SOS now...

steve a
01-22-2012, 10:35 PM
How many different versions of the Innova Gator have been released? I remember at least three. While reading the list of pdga approved discs I noticed that the gator is only on there once and no variants have been submited. Which actual mold was submitted for the testing? Was it the beadless or the beaded version? Just curious which ones can be used in pdga tournaments and which ones can't.

zj1002
01-22-2012, 10:53 PM
every 1

Three Putt
01-22-2012, 11:00 PM
This is going to loop back to the SOS. I tend to agree with steve a. If the disc was released and sold as an Orion LS it is legal. No different from an Eagle L which was never actually approved, either. They were stamped and sold as Eagles, though. The rules say "legal." The SOS thing might have been shady business, but it was shady business that falls withing the PDGA rules.

Three Putt
01-22-2012, 11:03 PM
Damn, I use a lot of commas.

UTTERBACK
01-22-2012, 11:15 PM
My writing has been professionally criticized for using too many commas as well,.

Mr. America
01-22-2012, 11:24 PM
Why the hell was a gator thread merged with this post and what the hell is a Valk X?

steve a
01-22-2012, 11:44 PM
Why the hell was a gator thread merged with this post and what the hell is a Valk X?

I don't know but I am going to start another one..

money 21
01-22-2012, 11:49 PM
one of the problems i have with the sos being illeagal is that it would pass for pdga approval if mill would have just sent it in.

steve a
01-22-2012, 11:52 PM
one of the problems i have with the sos being illeagal is that it would pass for pdga approval if mill would have just sent it in.

The did send the orion ls in for approval and it is approved. The S-OS is a variant of the orion ls.

Cgkdisc
01-23-2012, 09:51 AM
If Millennium called the S-OS an SOLS, it would have been approved by default as a variant. But as soon as a manufacturer introduces a disc with a different name, the Tech Standards require that disc to be submitted for approval even if it's obvious it would likely pas the spec tests. However, approved discs also must have at least 500 production discs available for sale to prevent some limited production disc model only available to maybe top pros.

steve a
01-23-2012, 03:00 PM
S-OS is the initials on the bottom of the disc. The stamp on top says Sirius Orion LS. Even the new 1.3 runs sols are marked S-OS on the bottom. I guess it is an approved disc after all. Thanks Chuck.

zenbot
01-23-2012, 03:08 PM
I really like the S.OS.

I ultimately ditched it because of the confusion around it being approved or not and it being difficult to replace. I emailed John Houck and he was able to sell me a few a couple years ago.

steve a
01-26-2012, 11:18 AM
I emailed millennium on Friday about these discs and I received a reply today. Millennium confirmed the discs are pdga approved.

Moify
01-26-2012, 02:29 PM
I emailed millennium on Friday about these discs and I received a reply today. Millennium confirmed the discs are pdga approved.

...thank you for putting an end to the madness. Sleep easy, S-OS lovers. Now everyone post pictures of your Wal-Mart bought shanty-discs. ;)

ZAMson
01-26-2012, 02:59 PM
ask houck why the SOS weren't considered Orion LSes for over 2 years.

throw 'em in competition, you'll get away with it.

Cgkdisc
01-26-2012, 04:52 PM
steve a - I emailed millennium on Friday about these discs and I received a reply today. Millennium confirmed the discs are pdga approved.
I believe the PDGA determines whether they are approved or not. The Tech Standards Chairman, Jeff Homburg, indicated he had no test results or paperwork indicating the S-OS was approved.

steve a
01-26-2012, 05:40 PM
I believe the PDGA determines whether they are approved or not. The Tech Standards Chairman, Jeff Homburg, indicated he had no test results or paperwork indicating the S-OS was approved.

Have him check Sirius Orion LS. I wasn't aware each abbreviation on the bottom of the disc needed to be approved separately. S-OS is not the name of the disc or what is stamped on it.

Star Shark
01-27-2012, 01:35 AM
Innova had this glitch with the Star SL. The disc had been approved for several years as the Starfire but as soon as they shortened the name, it needed to be resubmitted for approval. This never occurred to Innova so the Star SL was not an approved disc for the first 6 months it was out.