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seedlings 10-16-2020 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644843)
"Far" and "as far" are two different relative concepts.
I didn't say O was throwing "far". I said "as far". Like this morning, I was working on my hyzer flips and getting them out to 330-360. I had one that I really cranked on and it flipped up but then just turned its whole flight and right when it hit the ground it was just starting to want to fight out of the turn. I wished I gor it up higher to get a s flight. I only got that one up 6-8 feet off the ground though. It went 365 feet. I dont know how far it would have gone had I given it more height but maybe another 20-40 feet is fair.

I'm hitting 350 feet pretty regular now when warmed up. I think that's pretty good distance for my age (47) and how long I've been playing (3 1/2 months).

I’m age 46, 5’ 9” and 210 lbs with short arms and chubby fingers. I started playing in June 2020. I am so happy your skills work for you. The alternative advice I’ve read here has me over 400’ with 442’ my max. I land pin high on 300’-370’ holes on the course. I miss the putts, but the drives are ok. YMMV.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3644846)
Iím age 46, 5í 9Ē and 210 lbs with short arms and chubby fingers. I started playing in June 2020. I am so happy your skills work for you. The alternative advice Iíve read here has me over 400í with 442í my max. I land pin high on 300í-370í holes on the course. I miss the putts, but the drives are ok. YMMV.

Sounds pretty sweet. I would say your distance is an anomaly though- way above average. I think I'm above average also. As far as I can tell, and from the PDGA, the average drive of a player (novice) with our experience is between 175-250 feet. And from my experience out on the courses and talking to others that's about exactly correct.

azplaya25 10-16-2020 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644831)
Okay, let's be honest. You say you've been olaying for 10 years or so? What is your average drive distance?
Im not making a contest or anything, just saying that you seem pretty athletic and that after 10 years you should probably be driving 400-450 feet pretty easily. But you are not. You yourself have admitted to some fundamental timing issues and not understanding weight transfer, hips, brace, etc.
I've been playing 3 months and understand those things and I believe it shows in the distance I'm getting so far.


Iíve played for 10 years off and on, and just for fun. I never filmed my throw or even thought about form. Itís funny that you are of the opinion that just playing disc golf for a longer period of time will lead to someone throwing further. If you have bad form, no amount of time will lead to more distance. If anything, youíre building muscle memory that will just be harder and harder to break.

I didnít start trying to figure out correct form until this past April. So for all intents and purposes, you and I have a similar amount of time invested in improving form. I can get my fairway drivers out to 330ish. Iíve thrown faster discs like escapes and valks around 370ish. Iíve had pretty rapid improvement just like you, I couldnít throw 200 feet when I started in April. I got up to 350ish in about 3 months, but I donít expect much more distance til I fix some form issues so Iím not even trying to throw far at this point

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644831)
Okay, let's be honest. You say you've been olaying for 10 years or so? What is your average drive distance?
Im not making a contest or anything, just saying that you seem pretty athletic and that after 10 years you should probably be driving 400-450 feet pretty easily. But you are not. You yourself have admitted to some fundamental timing issues and not understanding weight transfer, hips, brace, etc.
I've been playing 3 months and understand those things and I believe it shows in the distance I'm getting so far.

To be honest it does seem like you are trying to make it a pissing contest, and in general being a real jerk. You have admitted your baseball background has translated to your lefty throw, but it did't for your righty throw and even knowing what you know, you tried to throw righty again and still can't stop strong arming it.

He has 10 years of bad habits to unlearn after never focusing on form, but IMO he has made some great progress in about 3 months of work...
Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3566953)
Been playing for about 10 years but I've never focused on improving form. Typically putter throws go about 190ish. Not sure how to slow down the vid but hopefully y'all can give me some tips from this. Definitely feel like my timing may be off with the brace and hit.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3607331)
I've had some really good throws the past couple of days. Throwing my Rocs past where I had been throwing my eagles. Shot 3 under at my home course today and almost aced a hole with my star eagle that I hadn't ever even been close enough to birdie before.

Here's a Roc throw that went about 310

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2020/Ng6FsX.gif

Had some better throws after this once I turned off the camera. I'm realzing that the door frame drill is so key to everything. I used to try to generate lag with big wide rail or by "timing" everything right, but now I'm discovering that lag just happens if you get that butt toward the target in the backswing. The more I get my left butt towards the target, the more I get that wound up feeling that just explodes through the hit. Still probably have some things to clean up and haven't even attempted an x-step, but excited with the progress.


SaROCaM 10-16-2020 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644853)
Sounds pretty sweet. I would say your distance is an anomaly though- way above average. I think I'm above average also. As far as I can tell, and from the PDGA, the average drive of a player (novice) with our experience is between 175-250 feet. And from my experience out on the courses and talking to others that's about exactly correct.

How many of those average novices are out there chucking and having fun, and how many are poring over form videos and critiques? A better comparison would be between players with more involved approaches to developing their throw.

We do have a suitable comparison: you and seedlings are about the same age and have comparable experience. Yet seedlings is throwing over 400 while you are still only imagining having that distance. What accounts for the difference?

Seems like your build would give you a mechanical advantage over seedlings, so why aren't you throwing over 400' also?

You have basically the same amount of time throwing, so it's not like there is a difference in time spent developing "muscular explosiveness" like you emphasize.

Here's one notable difference:

One of you is open to coaching from sources with demonstrated success in coaching/throwing, while the other is stubbornly holding onto a theory that is rooted in observations/analysis of a novice (in multiple disciplines), not to mention often conflicts with established principles of physics and biomechanics. You don't know what you don't know, and that is limiting your ability. The knowledge you have gained is blinding you to the knowledge you lack. Again, the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644857)
To be honest it does seem like you are trying to make it a pissing contest, and in general being a real jerk. You have admitted your baseball background has translated to your lefty throw, but it did't for your righty throw and even knowing what you know, you tried to throw righty again and still can't stop strong arming it.

He has 10 years of bad habits to unlearn after never focusing on form, but IMO he has made some great progress in about 3 months of work...

It's just frustrating when you have it figured out and get it and no one wants to believe you or think you are blowing smoke. Growing up liking and playing baseball and coaching definitely helped with throwing lefty. To be honest I look at the video and see a hybrid throw of mostly arming the disc on the one hand, and trying to use the body also on the other. His distance progression is helping get the disc out farther but it appears to me he isn't really getting very much yet out of his hips and torso. I think it's great he is making progress. I know if I was still throwing rightly I would be lacking almost a 100 feet on average of what I throwing lefty.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3644868)
How many of those average novices are out there chucking and having fun, and how many are poring over form videos and critiques? A better comparison would be between players with more involved approaches to developing their throw.

We do have a suitable comparison: you and seedlings are about the same age and have comparable experience. Yet seedlings is throwing over 400 while you are still only imagining having that distance. What accounts for the difference?

Seems like your build would give you a mechanical advantage over seedlings, so why aren't you throwing over 400' also?

You have basically the same amount of time throwing, so it's not like there is a difference in time spent developing "muscular explosiveness" like you emphasize.

Here's one notable difference:

One of you is open to coaching from sources with demonstrated success in coaching/throwing, while the other is stubbornly holding onto a theory that is rooted in observations/analysis of a novice (in multiple disciplines), not to mention often conflicts with established principles of physics and biomechanics. You don't know what you don't know, and that is limiting your ability. The knowledge you have gained is blinding you to the knowledge you lack. Again, the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

Your basis is deeply flawed. There is no real evidence that proves your point. Seedlings distance is an anomaly for his age and experience. His isn't average. Neither is mine. We are both above the average, his is just above me. You can't compare me to him like that and say that I don't throw far like him because I hold on to some theory that you think is flawed.

I'm actually advocating to throw like Sidewinder in his video- the part where he actually throws. I am not advocating for some of what he says. Why? Because he says what he thinks he is doing but the video evidence shows something different. Sidewinder actually has pretty good mechanics. If I was to teach someone how to throw I would use the throwing parts of his video where he is actually throwing and not use the parts where he talks about what he thinks he is doing.

seedlings 10-16-2020 07:38 PM

FWIW, any adult who is determined to improve their form via the plethora of videos, diagrams and drills can throw 400í+. I know this because when I throw with all my might itís just a boring 275í. But when I throw with technique, I am dumbfounded for how little effort it took.

I still retreat to the hard work throws, but the disciplined technique throws are happening more often. The easy throws usually come when Iím thinking about shot placement and completely forget to remind myself all the drills.

BUT! I play with guys who donít work on form. They throw 275í. If their placement is better than mine, the distance is of no use. I can be pin high in the woods, while they are 120í short of the pin. They par and I bogey.

If local courses had 800í wide open par 5s, Iíd kick their butts. As it is, 275í max distance will get you under par on most courses.

I am hoping that disciplined work on form will get me accuracy. Thatís really what I want. I donít need to throw farther. If my drives stayed within a 15 degree wide window instead of a 30 degree wide window, man Iíd hit so many fewer trees. It is so disappointing to be able to throw it to the 368í pin, but hit a tree 50í from the tee and get out driven...

RoDeO 10-16-2020 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3644894)
FWIW, any adult who is determined to improve their form via the plethora of videos, diagrams and drills can throw 400’+. I know this because when I throw with all my might it’s just a boring 275’. But when I throw with technique, I am dumbfounded for how little effort it took.

I still retreat to the hard work throws, but the disciplined technique throws are happening more often. The easy throws usually come when I’m thinking about shot placement and completely forget to remind myself all the drills.

BUT! I play with guys who don’t work on form. They throw 275’. If their placement is better than mine, the distance is of no use. I can be pin high in the woods, while they are 120’ short of the pin. They par and I bogey.

If local courses had 800’ wide open par 5s, I’d kick their butts. As it is, 275’ max distance will get you under par on most courses.

I am hoping that disciplined work on form will get me accuracy. That’s really what I want. I don’t need to throw farther. If my drives stayed within a 15 degree wide window instead of a 30 degree wide window, man I’d hit so many fewer trees. It is so disappointing to be able to throw it to the 368’ pin, but hit a tree 50’ from the tee and get out driven...

I fully agree. Throwing lefty hss been a blessing because it's my non dominant arm. I've never done anything meaningful left handed until I learned LHBH. Its a blessing because I have to use technique to even throw it any distance. My arm strength and coordination with my left arm is pathetic compared to my right. It's why I will still throw rightly for layup shots because I jave way better motor skill right armed. But, using technique and form over muscle (from the arm itself) I can throw a good 100 feet farther from my weaker side.

SaROCaM 10-16-2020 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644873)
Your basis is deeply flawed. There is no real evidence that proves your point. Seedlings distance is an anomaly for his age and experience. His isn't average. Neither is mine. We are both above the average, his is just above me. You can't compare me to him like that and say that I don't throw far like him because I hold on to some theory that you think is flawed.

The flawed comparison is the one you made because you are comparing yourself and seedlings to average novices who aren't on here dissecting form and doing drills. Of course you will be throwing farther than those players.

Players such as yourself and seedlings = apples

Players who are casual novices = oranges

You are the one comparing apples and oranges. I am saying you need to compare apples to apples.

Here is the breakdown as if it were an experiment:

Player 1 and Player 2 are both physically capable males between the age of 45-48 with substantially similar experience.

Player 1 uses method A. Player 2 uses method B

Player 2 achieves superior results to Player 1. Since factors such as age, experience, effort, etc. have been held equal, and the differentiating variable is which method each player used, it follows that method B yields superior results to method A.

Yes, you are both above average, which is precisely why comparing the two of you is more appropriate than comparing either of you to other novices. That pool of players has a wide variance in age, experience, time spent throwing, time spent studying form and technique, etc. You and seedlings have more attributes in common, so it is less likely that another variable accounts for the difference in results. In other words, it is easier to isolate the variable that accounts for the difference in results since other variables are substantially equal. "ceteris paribus" if you will.


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