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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-19-2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3645627)
If something doesn't work for you, that's fine, don't do it. But why is it that when something doesn't work for you or make sense to you, you label it as incorrect, even if numerous other people are using/understanding it successfully?

Well, you have your hammer throw mechanics. Notice the rather straight arm and momentum swing-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/p5ACMu.gif

And you have the disc golf throw mechanics. Note the different mechanics of the hips, body, arm, etc, especially the path of the arm.-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/vNH4iC.gif

I tried to throw the hammer like you do a disc and the hammer about took me out because it was swinging into my torso as I brought it into the power pocket. In Sidewinders drill, there's no bringing the hammer into the power pocket.

RoDeO 10-19-2020 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3645620)
There are biomechanical ideals and principles of physics that affect everyone. The top throwers are matching their throws to this. That is why you see Kevin Jones and others going through the pre-throw motions of getting on the front leg and swinging. People have form/mechanical breakdowns, mobility issues, anatomical differences, etc. That is why there is a wide range of variation. If you do not understand the ideal, then when you focus on what players actually do, how do you know you are not focusing on something that is less than ideal?

For example, you focused on Paul Oman saying he has perfect form. His long levers allow him to throw farther with less than ideal form. If you took someone who is shorter and had them throw that way, they would have a difficult time achieving similar distance.

Let's say perfect form would have someone throwing 600'. But due to an issue with mechanics, mobility, etc. they throw 500'. Without understanding what the ideal is, how do you know that what you are doing isn't copying the issue that limits their throw to 5/6th of their potential? Yes, it is what they are doing, but even 500' throwers can be doing things better.

I didn't say Oman had perfect form. I said he had as perfect kinetic chain as possible. He gets max potential from a rather slow methodical x step and backswing. Other players have to get crazy momentum x steps to do the same. Plus, we don't really know just how far Paul Oman can really throw. We do know he can throw 500 feet from one of the slowest x steps out there and he isn't using arming to do it. Lever length doesn't really account for much. Half of the top throwers are short.

RowingBoats 10-19-2020 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3645667)
Well, you have your hammer throw mechanics. Notice the rather straight arm and momentum swing-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/p5ACMu.gif

And you have the disc golf throw mechanics. Note the different mechanics of the hips, body, arm, etc, especially the path of the arm.-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/vNH4iC.gif

I tried to throw the hammer like you do a disc and the hammer about took me out because it was swinging into my torso as I brought it into the power pocket. In Sidewinders drill, there's no bringing the hammer into the power pocket.

I have never seen anyone so utterly obtuse about the concept of drills. Ever. I mean it. Just stop and go play, I think you have exhausted the potential of this discussion.

bsammons 10-19-2020 01:19 PM

Shoulder down is mechanically identical. The hammer drill is designed to teach your lower body and lats the feel of leverage. Just spinning gives no leverage.
The feel of leverage throwing the hammer is the same as throwing a disc from the lats down, the only difference between the two is triceps to hands. A disc throw adds more with those levers because the muscles can add more, due to lesser weight. You like pitching mechanics; draw a free body diagram of the disc golf throw and a hammer throw, you’ll see the same exact thing lats down. People are talking to you about leverage, and you’re missing the point of the drills. Hammer drill doesn’t teach the arm as much as it teaches body weight and leverage.
I think it would be really beneficial to find out what exactly the drill is supposed to teach before writing it off as different or useless, because to the lower body and lats, throwing a hammer is 100% identical to throwing a disc.

RoDeO 10-19-2020 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3645670)
I have never seen anyone so utterly obtuse about the concept of drills. Ever. I mean it. Just stop and go play, I think you have exhausted the potential of this discussion.

Go back to what I said. All I said was I tried to use the mechanics of the disc throwing action to throw the hammer. The hammer throwing mechanics is different. Just a note to anyone out there who may be thinking they incorporate the same mechanics- they don't.

RowingBoats 10-19-2020 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3645674)
Go back to what I said. All I said was I tried to use the mechanics of the disc throwing action to throw the hammer. The hammer throwing mechanics is different. Just a note to anyone out there who may be thinking they incorporate the same mechanics- they don't.

The ground up mechanics are literally identical. I believe you when you say that if you pick up a hammer and try to throw your way, with deliberate hip rotation starting from the rear, its going to be ****ed up. That's kind of the point everyone is making.

RoDeO 10-19-2020 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3645680)
The ground up mechanics are literally identical. I believe you when you say that if you pick up a hammer and try to throw your way, with deliberate hip rotation starting from the rear, its going to be ****ed up. That's kind of the point everyone is making.

You missed the whole point. Never mind I guess.

RoDeO 10-19-2020 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3645672)
Shoulder down is mechanically identical. The hammer drill is designed to teach your lower body and lats the feel of leverage. Just spinning gives no leverage.
The feel of leverage throwing the hammer is the same as throwing a disc from the lats down, the only difference between the two is triceps to hands. A disc throw adds more with those levers because the muscles can add more, due to lesser weight. You like pitching mechanics; draw a free body diagram of the disc golf throw and a hammer throw, youíll see the same exact thing lats down. People are talking to you about leverage, and youíre missing the point of the drills. Hammer drill doesnít teach the arm as much as it teaches body weight and leverage.
I think it would be really beneficial to find out what exactly the drill is supposed to teach before writing it off as different or useless, because to the lower body and lats, throwing a hammer is 100% identical to throwing a disc.

Well, they are close, not identical. My point wad that you can't actually pick up a hammer and try to throw it like you do with a disc, it just doesn't work. Doing the drill to get a feeling for the legs and body might be good but just forget the whole arm action part, it's different.

bsammons 10-19-2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3645688)
Well, they are close, not identical. My point wad that you can't actually pick up a hammer and try to throw it like you do with a disc, it just doesn't work. Doing the drill to get a feeling for the legs and body might be good but just forget the whole arm action part, it's different.

I get that if you pull the hammer into the power pocket it’s gonna hit you in the chest, I’ll give you that and didn’t deny that will happen.

The main point here though is that you don’t pull the disc into the power pocket. It is brought there because of momentum created by leverage from the lower body, the ground, and gravity. Your elbow never breaks 90 degrees-in fact, many players (myself included) don’t bring it in anywhere close to 90 degrees. From the front it looks that way because of camera angles, but from a top view the tension is never let off of the triceps

I’m sure you’ve done bench press before.

When the weight is lowered, you’re not pulling it down with your lats, posterior deltoids and biceps. You’re keeping tension, and allowing the weight to lower itself. That’s what the “power pocket” is. The tension is lowered, but never released, with the triceps, and then is suddenly heightened at the hit, where the triceps extend. Your biceps are never recruited, therefore you cannot pull the disc or hammer towards you. I know it may seem silly but seriously, draw a feee body diagram of a McBeth, Garrett Gurthie, Simon Lizotte, etc etc and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

To drive the point home, you’re doing the hammer drill incorrectly-it’s supposed to allow you to get the feel of leveraging the disc.

Just like weight training. You slowly do things with large weights so you can do them quickly and more efficiently.

I was a collegiate caliber sprinter. That is the definition of needing pure speed over strength.
Even I worked out, ran drills, etc etc because they trained me for when the gun shot off.

Do you need a deadlift motion to run? No. Did it drop my times significantly because of built up strength and control? Absolutely.

That’s what drills do. They get the fundamentals down so you can know what it feels like. The hammer drill is a drill that teaches what muscles are used and helps you weed out the muscles that aren’t supposed to be used.

RoDeO 10-19-2020 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3645689)
I get that if you pull the hammer into the power pocket itís gonna hit you in the chest, Iíll give you that and didnít deny that will happen.

The main point here though is that you donít pull the disc into the power pocket. It is brought there because of momentum created by leverage from the lower body, the ground, and gravity. Your elbow never breaks 90 degrees-in fact, many players (myself included) donít bring it in anywhere close to 90 degrees. From the front it looks that way because of camera angles, but from a top view the tension is never let off of the triceps

Iím sure youíve done bench press before.

When the weight is lowered, youíre not pulling it down with your lats, posterior deltoids and biceps. Youíre keeping tension, and allowing the weight to lower itself. Thatís what the ďpower pocketĒ is. The tension is lowered, but never released, with the triceps, and then is suddenly heightened at the hit, where the triceps extend. Your biceps are never recruited, therefore you cannot pull the disc or hammer towards you. I know it may seem silly but seriously, draw a feee body diagram of a McBeth, Garrett Gurthie, Simon Lizotte, etc etc and youíll see what Iím talking about.

To drive the point home, youíre doing the hammer drill incorrectly-itís supposed to allow you to get the feel of leveraging the disc.

Just like weight training. You slowly do things with large weights so you can do them quickly and more efficiently.

I was a collegiate caliber sprinter. That is the definition of needing pure speed over strength.
Even I worked out, ran drills, etc etc because they trained me for when the gun shot off.

Do you need a deadlift motion to run? No. Did it drop my times significantly because of built up strength and control? Absolutely.

Thatís what drills do. They get the fundamentals down so you can know what it feels like. The hammer drill is a drill that teaches what muscles are used and helps you weed out the muscles that arenít supposed to be used.

The disc gets pulled into the power pocket area. It either has to get pushed or pulled according to physics and we know it's not pushed. But anyways...


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