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pjhayes7 06-14-2021 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728111)
Its looking more and more like the Originals are going away... I wonder if Infinite will just start ordering all the Originals and give them different names? I would LOVE that, especially since Infinite runs all their discs in awesome plastics on a regular basis, instead of just once in a while getting some color glow discs or some metal flakes. Being able to get Color Glow "MD3"s for less than 150$ would be a nice change lol.

If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728152)
If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

BillFleming 06-14-2021 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3728106)
So does that mean that Dismania can have Lat64 make a new mold part and make the "Originals"?.

No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

biscoe 06-14-2021 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728164)
No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728153)
The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3728170)
Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

No, a mold cannot be patented exactly, but not duplicated either unless someone got the original mold pieces and reproduced or had the specs for the mold pieces (and that would be theft if anyone outside Innova did this).

So the point still stands that DM DOES NOT own the molds. They can try to have someone else reproduce the molds as closely as possible, but it will never be exactly the same. If the Originals line is discontinued, the only way you will ever see those discs again is if Innova decides to use them again

soothsayer 06-14-2021 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728171)
Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728164)
No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

This is incorrect. Individual molds are not patented. The molds themselves are owned by Innova. If they were individually patented, there wouldnt be a million Teebird clones by every company out there (same with Firebirds, Destroyers, etc). They could have Lat64 recreate the FD, put a stamp on it called "FD" since they own that name, if they wanted to. It wouldnt be the EXACT mold that is in innovas factory, but with modern technology im sure they could get it damn close.

ray1970 06-14-2021 01:37 PM

Assuming they looked, felt, and flew the same I’d bag some opto FD’s or classic blend P2’s, or a less beefy gold line PD that flew like a beat in S-line right off the shelf. Just saying.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728175)
Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.

BillFleming 06-14-2021 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728194)
Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up.

And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

soothsayer 06-14-2021 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728194)
I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.

I agree about the top players selling more discs. Side note, you can actually by infinite line discs at many of the top retailers as they have started wholesale sales (thats a weird way of saying it lol). OTB sold a ton of Alpacas once people realized it was basically a P2 and P2s were unavailable. Regardless, I don't think Innova will let those molds go to waste.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728201)
And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

BillFleming 06-14-2021 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728224)
I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728249)
Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

PLOT TWIST: Discmania buys out Innova and cancels production on all Innova molds, dedicating 100% of production to Originals.

tbird888 06-14-2021 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728146)
My point is that they have had more than ample opportunity to insulate their company and not be nearly as dependent of the whims of others.

I think they really dropped the ball on reinvestment into their own infrastructure and they are paying a supreme price for that right now. What's happening now was likely avoidable if they had invested in becoming more independent.

I'm not faulting them for the pandemic - but there has certainly been availability and production issues from 2019 and prior that were never solved.

How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

Ahildy13 06-14-2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbird888 (Post 3728309)
How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3728353)
This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

Not that they dont want extra cycles on the molds. I am sure the mold pieces for their most popular have been replace multiple times. They don't want those valuable pieces out in the wild so someone could literally copy a firebird, wraith, etc. The peices for the dome part of the disc are probable much easier to duplicate than the valuable bottom and wing pieces that make a disc what it is. Think of the Doritos Locos Tacos at Taco Bell. Frito Lay would never just sell the formula for the flavor to Taco Bell but would gladly license the use of the Doritos nacho flavor.

Now if they had paid Innova to design and make completely unique molds that DM would then own, that would have been a completely different situation. I would hope that is what DM did with Latitude and Yikun and that they own those molds.

Flick Maniac 06-15-2021 05:14 AM

Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

pjhayes7 06-15-2021 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728405)
Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

What would anyone talk about ever if not for conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too? Obviously i am joking and apologize for any incorrect opinions i have presented as facts, as that was not my intent and also likely not the intent of most users here. The good thing about a forum like this is that there are those with much more actual knowledge who will actively correct misinformation and most people on here i believe are willing to accept that they are wrong and accept new information when it comes to facts.

But half the fun of these forums is sometimes wild and unfounded speculation. Luckily, we are talking about and activity where we throw pieces of plastic at stuff and hopefully no one is hurt by being completely misinformed. I have been away from this forum for about 2 years and i forgot how much i loved it.

DinosaurThunder 06-15-2021 09:03 AM

The scene - Discmania and Innova part ways. Innova continues to reproduce all popular Originals molds for Infinite and Millennium. Eagle, Simon and Perkins get fed up losing out on their signature disc money from innova produced discs. Discraft buys out Eagle, Innova buys out Simon (who finally gets to throw his beloved roc again) and Perkins moves to Millennium (which would be a sick fit). Discmania goes all in on Lat plastic and becomes a euro brand primarily. I pray on all the new people to disc golf, flipping all my original molds for huge profits. I attempt to buy the rights to produce the DD under a new name/monicker from Innova - I fail. Discmania is remembered fondly for when they first produced the P2/FD and when they hit peak production/hype in 2015 when the DM store was launched.

Long live the P2, FD, PD and DD.

VictorB 06-15-2021 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbird888 (Post 3728309)
How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that whatever deals that DM and Innova had were not nearly as air-tight as they might have seemed. Going to L64 and Yikun for manufacturing a couple of years ago was a good indication that Innova was not able to take care of the needs of DM.

Could all of this have been avoided? Probably - they had plenty of time to figure out a plan where they could have manufactured at least some of their own discs.

Regardless - it's no skin off my nose. I stopped throwing DM a long time ago, when they trimmed plastics and older molds around 2016/2017 or so. And now they have one of their top pros throwing OOP plastic (Simon and the C-MD)

soothsayer 06-15-2021 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728405)
Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

Welcome to the internet! You must be new here;)

Horsman 06-15-2021 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinosaurThunder (Post 3728425)
The scene - Discmania and Innova part ways. Innova continues to reproduce all popular Originals molds for Infinite and Millennium. Eagle, Simon and Perkins get fed up losing out on their signature disc money from innova produced discs. Discraft buys out Eagle, Innova buys out Simon (who finally gets to throw his beloved roc again) and Perkins moves to Millennium (which would be a sick fit). Discmania goes all in on Lat plastic and becomes a euro brand primarily. I pray on all the new people to disc golf, flipping all my original molds for huge profits. I attempt to buy the rights to produce the DD under a new name/monicker from Innova - I fail. Discmania is remembered fondly for when they first produced the P2/FD and when they hit peak production/hype in 2015 when the DM store was launched.

Long live the P2, FD, PD and DD.

This is exactly how I feel, I think Eagle and Simon would both move on from Discmania

soothsayer 06-15-2021 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
And now they have one of their top pros throwing OOP plastic (Simon and the C-MD)

Not just Simon...

VictorB 06-15-2021 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728449)
Not just Simon...

I guess that's true, since it seems all of the originals are OOP :D

Jolt 06-15-2021 10:15 AM

Wonder why Discmania choosed to announce this the day before Worlds start?

IF Eagle wins Worlds, what will his sig, Disc be?!?

soothsayer 06-15-2021 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728450)
I guess that's true, since it seems all of the originals are OOP :D

:hfive: boom, roasted

also, watching Eagle's 2021 In The Bag, he has an almost 1 of a kind C-Line Second Tool FD2 which is OOP since they did the third retool (he says there were only a few produced in C-Line and its pretty much irreplaceable) as well as numerous other discs that may or may not be OOP, but are unobtainable for the average disc golfer (Imperial Eagle p2s, early run PDs, proto Cloudbreakers, Crowned Eagle MD3s etc etc).

pjhayes7 06-15-2021 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that whatever deals that DM and Innova had were not nearly as air-tight as they might have seemed. Going to L64 and Yikun for manufacturing a couple of years ago was a good indication that Innova was not able to take care of the needs of DM.

Could all of this have been avoided? Probably - they had plenty of time to figure out a plan where they could have manufactured at least some of their own discs.

Regardless - it's no skin off my nose. I stopped throwing DM a long time ago, when they trimmed plastics and older molds around 2016/2017 or so. And now they have one of their top pros throwing OOP plastic (Simon and the C-MD)

You speak of proactive solutions, but everything after the initial agreement where Innova owns the molds and produces a disc DM slaps a name on was ultimately going to end this way sooner or later. DM was never going to own these molds, NEVER.

The best they could and probably should have done was sign some sort of contract where they were guaranteed a certain number of discs produced every year and renegotiated that contract periodically. That way they could contractually prevent Innova from ignoring the production of DM molds and prioritizing others. But of course, from Innova's point of view, a contract like that would likely never be signed or cost DM so much money that the margins on each disc would be next to nothing.

And yes, DM could have made huge capital investment into buying injection molds and producing their own discs, but again, it would under no circumstances been the Originals molds. No way Innova would have "loaned" out those pieces for another disc golf company to do the injection molding.

I think the story of DM is probably this:
1. Come up with an idea to sell a few discs using an established manufacturer that makes some tweaks and boom, new discs. Make a little money doing this for a while.
2. Grow popularity through good marketing, player signings, quality disc lineup and start selling more discs and making some decent money.
3. Start to become too popular for the business strategy to the point that you literally cannot keep up with the demand you have generated (Innova was never going to allow molding of a competitor's molds, very friendly but still a competitor, interfere with the capacity to mold their own discs that they make much more money selling.
4. Begin to expand strategy and have other manufacturers produce new molds (hopefully that are unique and that DM fully owns, even if someone else does the actual injection molding, if they want to avoid the problems of step 3 again in the future). Allows for new molds to be brought to market and increased production all together. Previous relationship cannot last but is still valuable and worth continuing while new strategy is ramped up and becomes main, sustainable, and ultimately growable source of revenue not limited like previous strategy.
5. Once in a century catastrophe that causes a not complete but certainly substantial decrease in ability for all manufacturers in all industries to produce products. Said catastrophe also directly results in a situation where the market you are in sees growth of popularity and demand like never before. This makes the unsustainable situation illustrated in step 3 come to a full halt that will ultimately end that working relationship forever.
6. (The following is my prediction) Forced to walk away from the relationship that allowed DM to become what it is, but possibly a good thing like ripping a Band-Aid off, had to happen sometime, probably better to do it quickly. Hurts sales for a few years, possibly losing some of the best signed players in the process, but allows them to focus solely on a sustainable strategy going forward.

soothsayer 06-15-2021 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728405)
Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

please, enlighten us...

soothsayer 06-15-2021 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3728454)
Wonder why Discmania choosed to announce this the day before Worlds start?

IF Eagle wins Worlds, what will his sig, Disc be?!?

The *new* "overstable Innova fairway driver that is suspiciously similar to an FD3" of course!

dehaas 06-15-2021 11:03 AM

Just to play Devil’s advocate a bit…

Nobody has really thrown the idea out there that perhaps DM and Innova renegotiated their previous business agreement.

Just like anything else it’s a negotiable contract. People talk about the availability of Infinite molds recently and lack of DM OG. Whatever deal Infinite has negotiated might have put them in a better position or priority than DM. Nobody knows aside from those involved.

Could be possible Jussi went to Dave and said hey, the current deal is pinching us off, let’s go back to square one and figure it out. Could also be possible if DM felt the contract wasn’t being upheld they’d pursue the legal route, and that led to some renegotiation.

We’ll find out soon enough, but think of this…there was a stretch of a couple months all of us swore up and down there’s no way McBeth would ever leave Innova, especially to move to Discraft. So who knows what kind of craziness we’re about to see.

tbird888 06-15-2021 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

I'm thinking reactively? I can see how that conversation would go.
Jussi: Hey, we want to get the molds for our lineup so we can mold them elsewhere.
Dunipace: You want me to hand you 2/3 of the mold pieces for the Aviar, Firebird, Wraith, Destroyer, etc.? Get bent. Contract terminated.
Jussi: Hey, just trying to be proactive so you don't write me off after I sign contracts with two of your direct competitors for them to make discs for me too.
Dunipace: Security!


Innova uses mold pieces from their most popular discs to make Discmania's molds. Discmania likely had a contract for exclusivity of their molds with Innova. There's no way Innova's going to make new mold pieces for Firebirds, Aviars, Destroyers, and Wraiths to hand over to someone to take to, say, Latitude 64 to have those discs made elsewhere. They'd be a top piece away from being able to make Innova's most popular discs. Innova OWNS the molds. The physical molds. They are the cornerstone of their business. No amount of proactivity is going to change this. The only thing I could possibly see leaving the factory is the Anhyzer top as that was supposedly made specifically for Discmania's molds. Without the lower wing pieces though, why bother?

You can likely look for these molds to be renamed and sold as Infinite products in the near future. And Innova will continue to own the molds, regardless of who's name is on the stamp.

BillFleming 06-15-2021 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3728353)
This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

Innova isn't going to give anyone a copy of their molds or CAD designs. Period.

Look at it this way: the differences are mostly plastic type. Innova makes an Innova X disc using plastics A, B, and C. With the same mold, Innova makes Discmania Y disc with plastic E.

As long as the mold and production are under Innova's control, they can ensure that no Discmania Y disc is made using plastics A, B, or C. So, why would Innova want to lose that control by giving Discmania a copy of the mold and/or the CAD design for the mold?

Now, if Discmania had provided Innova with unique designs for the molds and those unique designs were used ONLY for Discmania discs....that would be different tale.

VictorB 06-15-2021 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728464)
3. Start to become too popular for the business strategy to the point that you literally cannot keep up with the demand you have generated (Innova was never going to allow molding of a competitor's molds, very friendly but still a competitor, interfere with the capacity to mold their own discs that they make much more money selling.

This was the point that they should have started being more proactive. And I'd put this part of the timeline back in like 2015? Nothing happened. I guess you reap what you sew, and the fields are barren now

VictorB 06-15-2021 11:56 AM

Would they be able to get the mold pieces from Innova? I'm sure they tried at some point, and any discussions about that would be speculation. Maybe Innova was ok with it, and asked a price that DM was unwilling to pay. Maybe Dave D flat out said no. Either way, here we are.

Could DM have done something sooner, to break off the relationship construct as it was initially imagined? Probably, but who knows how it would have happened or if DM would even be here today. If it was destined to end, DM should have done it on their terms. Innova definitely loses something if they no longer have the partnership.

Note: I think that Innova does not own the complete molds - I believe the DM 'anhyzer' top is proprietary. So unless there's a way that they get to 'keep the mold' (for lack of a better term) those DM originals might be dead

Flick Maniac 06-15-2021 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728432)
Welcome to the internet! You must be new here;)

Lol. You can easily see my stats. Been here for a while. Not that it matters really, a persons post is the same value no matter if they have 1 post or 1000 posts. But since you brought it up.

It just rubs me the wrong way when people dont have the full picture. Not that I have it either but Ive seen the growth of the company since 2009, and not just the heyday years. There are a lot more factors than what the simplified image offers. Like DM being part of a bigger company that is a huge wholesale importer of Innova in Europe. Surely that was a pretty big part in the original agreement.

But the discussion is entertaining though, and shows that people care. Its not about rubbing me or not rubbing me (I can get that elsewhere lol)

If you specifically want one piece of incorrect info, see the post about the patent numbers. That was cleared up already by someone else.

Also if someone thinks Innova has like only one physical roundy bit for molding a destroyer, cmon really? That thing breaks up and they stop making Destroyers until new one is machine tooled? Yeah right.

We'll see what happens on the 21st. Hard to imagine a complete break up, as the companies have such a symbiotic relationship with such history, but who knows.

soothsayer 06-15-2021 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728521)
Lol. You can easily see my stats. Been here for a while. Not that it matters really, a persons post is the same value no matter if they have 1 post or 1000 posts. But since you brought it up.

It just rubs me the wrong way when people dont have the full picture. Not that I have it either but Ive seen the growth of the company since 2009, and not just the heyday years. There are a lot more factors than what the simplified image offers. Like DM being part of a bigger company that is a huge wholesale importer of Innova in Europe. Surely that was a pretty big part in the original agreement.

But the discussion is entertaining though, and shows that people care. Its not about rubbing me or not rubbing me (I can get that elsewhere lol)

If you specifically want one piece of incorrect info, see the post about the patent numbers. That was cleared up already by someone else.

Also if someone thinks Innova has like only one physical roundy bit for molding a destroyer, cmon really? That thing breaks up and they stop making Destroyers until new one is machine tooled? Yeah right.

We'll see what happens on the 21st. Hard to imagine a complete break up, as the companies have such a symbiotic relationship with such history, but who knows.

hey man, my comment was totally in jest, no offense intended.

I do think its reasonable for people to be speculating about what the heck is going on, especially since DM discs are loved by a lot of people. I don't think any of this is about attacking Innova or DM either.

Also, interesting how all DM stuff is now off of Innovastore.net and has moved to their own website not related to Innova.

SuperWookie 06-16-2021 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that whatever deals that DM and Innova had were not nearly as air-tight as they might have seemed. Going to L64 and Yikun for manufacturing a couple of years ago was a good indication that Innova was not able to take care of the needs of DM.

Could all of this have been avoided? Probably - they had plenty of time to figure out a plan where they could have manufactured at least some of their own discs.

Regardless - it's no skin off my nose. I stopped throwing DM a long time ago, when they trimmed plastics and older molds around 2016/2017 or so. And now they have one of their top pros throwing OOP plastic (Simon and the C-MD)


Exactly this! DM has been reactive instead of proactive, and that is just bad business. I keep seeing all this speculation talk about this and that. And who knows what is really going on behind the scenes at DM and Innova in regards to producing the Originals line. It's irrelevant though. It all boils down to a few important things:

1. DM has, and has had the two most popular players in their stable for a LONG time. Simon and Eagle. And there are literally no pros out there (other than PMB) that can draw as much interest and sales as Simon and Eagle. These two guys are like the Ken Griffey Jr/ODB Jr/Michael Jordan of disc golf! They absolutely BOMB shots, have insanely great throws (that everyone wants to model their throw on), have electric personalities and exude cool. There are NO other pros like them. There's a reason there are people called DiscMANIACS. Not bashing any other disc golfers, but Simon and Eagle both transcend disc golf. And it's not a new thing that Simon and Eagle are winning. They have been winning for a LONG time. And selling discs for a LONG time. Since the first time I watched pros on youtube, Simon and Eagle stood out like a sore thumb. There are NO other pros like them and you can't put a price tag on that kind of mystique and draw they have.

2. The pandemic is just a hiccup in the overall business timeline for DM and other companies. And as seen by other companies, it's totally possible to continue producing discs and getting them out there. Obviously most production companies have been effected to some degree or another, but it's totally possible to continue producing discs. This is the main problem for DM. They don't make their own product. Which means they are totally dependent on other companies and specifically Innova for making their product (especially the discs everyone wants, which is the Originals line). Meaning, if ANYTHING goes wrong in the relationship, or Innova tells DM they don't have time or resources to make Originals, then DM is screwed. And that is not good planning or business sense. They should have been figuring out ways to make their own plastic YEARS ago. Once again, we don't have all the details. But... if you are sitting on a gold mine like Simon and Eagle, you would think that company would do or pay WHATEVER is necessary to make sure those discs are always available to buy.

DM has had PLENTY of time to realize what kind of gold mine they are sitting on with Simon and Eagle. It's not "new" information that Simon and Eagle sell TONS of gear. They have been the two of the most popular Pros for going on 6 years or more now. So all this talk of DM (possibly) not knowing ahead of time that the molds that Simon/Eagle use would sell so well and blah blah blah is just categorically incorrect. It's very poor planning by DM. They have known for 6+ years that whatever discs Simon and Eagle play, are going to sell through the roof! And should have been planning for the future years ago! Not during the pandemic! It's WAY too late at this point.

And DM has lost a lot of customers at this point, me included. I've moved on to trying other companies and found as good or better stuff. But the mystique and draw that Simon and Eagle create is something that can not be ignored and it really feels like DM has totally dropped the ball in terms of planning and making sure they control their own destiny. And the crazy thing is, if they get their sh*t together and start pumping out Originals and Originals signature models in the next few months, DM sales will once again go through the roof! People will quickly forget that DM had nothing for them for over a year. But who knows what is going to happen. It all just feels sketchy and like something bad is going to happen.

Now having said that, we still don't know what is going on behind the scenes with either DM or Innova. But we can say: the ball is being dropped big time, and DM's sales will continue to fall through the floor if they don't get lots of Originals out soon. And it would be catastrophic if they can't keep Simon and Eagle. People are OBSESSED with these two pros, and want their discs. So hopefully DM and Innova can get this sorted out and get back to making plastic and into the hands of all the fans. Especially all the new fans that have joined this great sport the last year or so!

BillFleming 06-16-2021 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperWookie (Post 3728869)
They have known for 6+ years that whatever discs Simon and Eagle play, are going to sell through the roof!

^^^This!

Can you say Tilt? What a 'worthless' disc - 9/1/1/6. Simon and Eagle say it can't be thrown like a normal disc and works best upside-down. So who would want a disc like that? BUT....Simon designed it and Eagle has thrown it in tournaments....so of course it sells out immediately.


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