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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-09-2020 12:15 PM

Here is a slow motion of Wiggins from a better angle. In the video watch very carefully at the front knee. You will see it kind of jolt and then come upwards. That is the precise moment of brace impact. At that moment, where is the disc? It's pulled in to his abdomen in the power pocket position. Now, at that same moment, look at his hips. They have already substantially rotated. Now, look at the hip and shoulder separation at that moment. His hips are already coming open and his shoulders have just started to rotate. This is that twisting load Im speaking of and it jas to be present at strong brace. The hips have to have already started to rotate at that point.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/j3R94c.gif

bsammons 10-09-2020 01:31 PM

The point here isn’t when the hips rotate, where the arm is, etc etc
The point here is this.
The hip doesn’t just *rotate*
If it did, then there would be no point in planting perpendicular to the target, because that inhibits rotation of the hips.
Power does not come from the hips rotating. It comes from the weight of your butt down, mostly from the trail leg. Like pulling down a post.
Take it from me-I can throw 450 with terrible form. Got it videoed, wheeled off, etc etc.
It’s wrong form.
I’m coming over the top and not bracing properly.
Imagine you’re pulling down a post that’s directly in line with, in your case, your left arm that’s out in front of you. Now try and pull that post straight back on one leg with your arm. When you feel it through your heel and you’re using your butt and leg to pull, that’s the feel.
Now imagine instead of a post that’s a disc in your hand. Your back muscle pull the disc to your left as your arm swings out, and your trail leg”pulls” the disc, just like you pulling the post.
That’s the effortless feeling.
That’s the feeling of an effortless shot.
The arm simply acts to keep tension on and aim the disc, but it’s a pull-just like pulling a post out of the ground.
You can’t get much of any force pulling a post out of the ground by Simply spinning your hips without leveraging your trail side against the post.

RandyC 10-09-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641896)
When done correctly, the rotation of the hips will always lead the rotation of the shoulders. In super slow motion you will see the hips begin to rotate, then the torso, and then lastly the shoulders begin to rotate. If the shoulders rotate first it's a sign of strongarming.

Okay one more time. You are missing the point. Torso does not rotate. Shoulders do not rotate get it ? They rotate because they move on top of your pelvis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od9dI5Wrkfo

RoDeO 10-09-2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3642017)
Okay one more time. You are missing the point. Torso does not rotate. Shoulders do not rotate get it ? They rotate because they move on top of your pelvis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od9dI5Wrkfo

The disc is ejected because you are converting torque, or rotational Force, and transfering out through the arm lever into a straight line. That torque, or twisting force is generated from the legs up. The torque or twist creates a lag as the hips rotate first and the shoulders are behind.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3641999)
The point here isnít when the hips rotate, where the arm is, etc etc
The point here is this.
The hip doesnít just *rotate*
If it did, then there would be no point in planting perpendicular to the target, because that inhibits rotation of the hips.
Power does not come from the hips rotating. It comes from the weight of your butt down, mostly from the trail leg. Like pulling down a post.
Take it from me-I can throw 450 with terrible form. Got it videoed, wheeled off, etc etc.
Itís wrong form.
Iím coming over the top and not bracing properly.
Imagine youíre pulling down a post thatís directly in line with, in your case, your left arm thatís out in front of you. Now try and pull that post straight back on one leg with your arm. When you feel it through your heel and youíre using your butt and leg to pull, thatís the feel.
Now imagine instead of a post thatís a disc in your hand. Your back muscle pull the disc to your left as your arm swings out, and your trail legĒpullsĒ the disc, just like you pulling the post.
Thatís the effortless feeling.
Thatís the feeling of an effortless shot.
The arm simply acts to keep tension on and aim the disc, but itís a pull-just like pulling a post out of the ground.
You canít get much of any force pulling a post out of the ground by Simply spinning your hips without leveraging your trail side against the post.

The brace helps facilitate rotation. But the brace isn't what initiates rotation.

RandyC 10-09-2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642030)
The disc is ejected because you are converting torque, or rotational Force, and transfering out through the arm lever into a straight line. That torque, or twisting force is generated from the legs up. The torque or twist creates a lag as the hips rotate first and the shoulders are behind.

Hips rotate shoulders just like biceps lift your forearm. So there is no hips rotate first and then the shoulders rotate. There is just hips rotate shoulders. So to say shoulders rotate first is like saying my forearm lifts up and then my bicep follows.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3642046)
Hips rotate shoulders just like biceps lift your forearm. So there is no hips rotate first and then the shoulders rotate. There is just hips rotate shoulders. So to say shoulders rotate first is like saying my forearm lifts up and then my bicep follows.

Let me say it a different way- in the throw, the degree angle of the hip in relation to the angle of the shoulders is different. The hips turn and the shoulders lag behind. You do know what hip to shoulder separation is don't you? Here
https://www.stack.com/a/hip-and-shou...throwing%20arm.

RandyC 10-09-2020 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642047)
Let me say it a different way- in the throw, the degree angle of the hip in relation to the angle of the shoulders is different. The hips turn and the shoulders lag behind. You do know what hip to shoulder separation is don't you? Here
https://www.stack.com/a/hip-and-shou...throwing%20arm.

Pfff bit different when you pitch versus backhand. See how everything is unwinding together front hip and shoulders in sync. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

His hip is not one bit ahead of his shoulders because hips rotate shoulders.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3642050)
Pfff bit different when you pitch versus backhand. See how everything is unwinding together front hip and shoulders in sync. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

His hip is not one bit ahead of his shoulders because hips rotate shoulders.

Watch carefully. His hips start to rotate just before his shoulders.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/c2z9u5.gif

RandyC 10-09-2020 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642077)
Watch carefully. His hips start to rotate just before his shoulders.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/c2z9u5.gif

I am not sure how many times do I need to say this, hips rotate shoulders.

ru4por 10-09-2020 05:03 PM

You could not have had the same discussion for dozens of posts, in the thread with dozens of the same posts in it already?

RoDeO 10-09-2020 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3642103)
I am not sure how many times do I need to say this, hips rotate shoulders.

Yes, we both agree that the hips/ torso rotate the shoulders. That's not what we have been debating. What we are discussing is that the hips lead the shoulders in rotation and that rotation of the hips begin before strong brace.

seedlings 10-09-2020 06:41 PM

The hips (wiggle/move/twitch/rock) SHIFT weight to the lead leg, then hips rotate on the lead leg. Weight is shifting ALREADY, then the power rotation occurs. Nanoseconds early/late are outliers, not the rule. There are also stylistic differences between players, but the body mechanics determine the essentials of pull/throw. Players are free to wiggle their whatevers and throw however they please. But until I get the proper body mechanics, I’ll never reach my individual max. If I am rotating my hips before my lead foot is braced, I will always be short of my max.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3642143)
The hips (wiggle/move/twitch/rock) SHIFT weight to the lead leg, then hips rotate on the lead leg. Weight is shifting ALREADY, then the power rotation occurs. Nanoseconds early/late are outliers, not the rule. There are also stylistic differences between players, but the body mechanics determine the essentials of pull/throw. Players are free to wiggle their whatevers and throw however they please. But until I get the proper body mechanics, I’ll never reach my individual max. If I am rotating my hips before my lead foot is braced, I will always be short of my max.

Well, whether you think you do or not, the only way you will ever throw like every pro player, is to get the hip rotation initiated before strong brace (full weight shift) because that's what every pro does. I started throwing RHBH and I swore I was using my hips. I found out after I started LHBH that I was never using my hips, it was all arm. It's funny now that my right arm is healed that I use it for my layup shots within 250 feet and just basically strong arm the disc. I try to use my hips more on the right but in general it's all arm. Throwing LHBH is super easy and the discs fly really easy. I can actually feel my hips and torso torquing the shoulder and arm and whipping it. You can get to where you can feel that torque loading up from hip rotation as you pull the disc into the power pocket before the shoulders rotate the disc into release.

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642132)
Yes, we both agree that the hips/ torso rotate the shoulders. That's not what we have been debating. What we are discussing is that the hips lead the shoulders in rotation and that rotation of the hips begin before strong brace.

These guys are maxing around 300' and clearly rotating their hips before "strong brace moment".
They should be throwing over them mountains according to your philosophy.


RoDeO 10-09-2020 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3642152)
These guys are maxing around 300' and clearly rotating their hips before "strong brace moment".
They should be throwing over them mountains according to your philosophy.


Let me ask you something- when you first started were you throwing at 300 feet or below or did you just puck up a disc one day and your first throws were 300+?
Also, not to be rude but I doubt you threw well at all when you first started. Oh yeah, you broke your back and leg, I forgot.

seedlings 10-09-2020 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642163)
Let me ask you something- when you first started were you throwing at 300 feet or below or did you just puck up a disc one day and your first throws were 300+?
Also, not to be rude but I doubt you threw well at all when you first started. Oh yeah, you broke your back and leg, I forgot.

Iím interested in your comments on the form in those videos.

dreadlock86 10-09-2020 08:13 PM

haha, move the goal post!

NoseDownKing 10-09-2020 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642163)
Let me ask you something- when you first started were you throwing at 300 feet or below or did you just puck up a disc one day and your first throws were 300+?

Also, not to be rude but I doubt you threw well at all when you first started. Oh yeah, you broke your back and leg, I forgot.

Holy f**k dude. No one cares how far someone throws when they first started. How does this have anything to do with your philosophy of throwing?

Absolutely no one throws far when they first start throwing. The difference is that some people have the ability to think straight and try and learn regular good form. They will be throwing further as they improve their form. Your philosophy breaks the standard laws of form.

Think about running. You push forward with your leg to land forward with your other leg and push with that leg to land on the other etc... Everytime you land on either leg, the hips swivel to the direction of which leg you land on. You can try slowmotion running.

Now try to rotate to that direction BEFORE the leg has landed on it. Not a lot of power/speed coming out of that now huh?

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

RoDeO 10-09-2020 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3642165)
Iím interested in your comments on the form in those videos.

Well, it clearly looks like two new guys learning how to throw. The guy on top is better than the guy on the bottom, he mostly just needs to get quicker muscle firings. The guy on the bottom just needs to watch some pros throwing for a while and start over.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3642167)
Holy f**k dude. No one cares how far someone throws when they first started. How does this have anything to do with your philosophy of throwing?

Absolutely no one throws far when they first start throwing. The difference is that some people have the ability to think straight and try and learn regular good form. They will be throwing further as they improve their form. Your philosophy breaks the standard laws of form.

Think about running. You push forward with your leg to land forward with your other leg and push with that leg to land on the other etc... Everytime you land on either leg, the hips swivel to the direction of which leg you land on. You can try slowmotion running.

Now try to rotate to that direction BEFORE the leg has landed on it. Not a lot of power/speed coming out of that now huh?

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

Sidewinder sure decided to throw a jab out there. I can jab back. It's childish but I can lower to others level too.

SaROCaM 10-09-2020 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642151)
Throwing LHBH is super easy and the discs fly really easy.

Then let's see that 450' throw.

twistedraven 10-09-2020 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642168)
Well, it clearly looks like two new guys learning how to throw. The guy on top is better than the guy on the bottom, he mostly just needs to get quicker muscle firings. The guy on the bottom just needs to watch some pros throwing for a while and start over.

You didn't notice the major flaw in their lower body? They're planting toes first and already opened up their hips.

SaROCaM 10-09-2020 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642168)
Well, it clearly looks like two new guys learning how to throw. The guy on top is better than the guy on the bottom, he mostly just needs to get quicker muscle firings. The guy on the bottom just needs to watch some pros throwing for a while and start over.

Nothing substantive here. I thought you had a refined understanding of how to throw?

RoDeO 10-09-2020 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3642179)
Then let's see that 450' throw.

It doesn't happen overnight. Let me ask- what's the average timeframe for a person to get to 450 feet? Several years I'm betting at least, if they even get there, right?

RoDeO 10-09-2020 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedraven (Post 3642182)
You didn't notice the major flaw in their lower body? They're planting toes first and already opened up their hips.

Yeah I noticed. Not a big deal with the top guy, just a few tweaks here and there. Players generally figure out most things on their own from trial and error. The guy on the bottom has so much wrong going on I don't know where to begin other than he needs to just start over.

seedlings 10-09-2020 10:53 PM


seedlings 10-09-2020 11:00 PM


seedlings 10-09-2020 11:06 PM


RoDeO 10-09-2020 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3642209)

It's a cool video. It's interesting to me that it appears his mechanics didnt really change that much over the years. Looks most like his muscles became better conditioned to fire quicker through lots of dedication and hard work. He has his own unique signature on his throw just like everyone else. Is his the most efficient? Who knows? Question I ask is- it seems like it took him a long time to get to 500 feet. Maybe that's just how it is. Could he have gotten there without those drills helping him? Maybe so. Maybe he could of got there sooner with different drills. Who knows?

SaROCaM 10-09-2020 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642207)
It doesn't happen overnight. Let me ask- what's the average timeframe for a person to get to 450 feet? Several years I'm betting at least, if they even get there, right?

The point is, right now you are a ~350' thrower. Your understanding and analysis when you watch people throwing is that of a 350' thrower. You are identifying and focusing on the things that a 350' thrower focuses on. This is true because (1) you are a 350' thrower and (2) those who are throwing 450'+ are not focusing on those things.

Getting to 450'* takes time, it is true. But I wouldn't be surprised if during the time it takes you to get to 450' (if you get there) you end up with a different understanding of the throw than you currently have.

*Getting way ahead; gotta get to 400' first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642215)
It's a cool video. It's interesting to me that it appears his mechanics didnt really change that much over the years.

They change quite a bit; compare the 350' throws (especially around the 0:27 mark) to the 450' throw.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3642211)

Interesting that in his next video he starts doing this sweep drill and his velocity drops 10 mph even though he says it felt good. That's what happens when you inhibit hip rotation.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3642221)
The point is, right now you are a ~350' thrower. Your understanding and analysis when you watch people throwing is that of a 350' thrower. You are identifying and focusing on the things that a 350' thrower focuses on. This is true because (1) you are a 350' thrower and (2) those who are throwing 450'+ are not focusing on those things.

Getting to 450'* takes time, it is true. But I wouldn't be surprised if during the time it takes you to get to 450' (if you get there) you end up with a different understanding of the throw than you currently have.

*Getting way ahead; gotta get to 400' first.



They change quite a bit; compare the 350' throws (especially around the 0:27 mark) to the 450' throw.

He basically just gets faster and more efficient. You can tell it's the same guy throwing from beginning to end.

I probably will get a different understanding. In my mind I see myself as a 400 foot thrower right now if I can get all the pieces put together. I've thrown over 370 several times and know it's in there when I get everything just right. At this point it's repetition and building muscle memory to be consistant. This past few weeks I've had to start learning the hyzer flip because my discs I have were turning and I havent bought new discs. Plus, learning to hyzer flip is a must have anyway. I have this light flippy Jade disc and I am just learning to get it to hyzer flip and then s curve out to about 330 feet. For me that's great distance for that technique right now. I'm just learning also that straight laser shots aren't really going to go 400 feet and that I must employ angles and different release planes to get out farther. I am getting to where I can throw a hyzer shot to 300 feet now and have it hyzer the whole way.

Where Im at now compared to 3 months ago when I first started LHBH is pretty much the same mechanics I feel, just quicker now. The big change is understanding how the numbers on the disc are and why that's important. When I started I just threw everything on a flat release. Now I use different angles depending on my desire and the disc Im using. When I practice max distance it's my fastest disc on an anhyzer line. Right now though I have fallen in love with the hyzer flip even though I can't get it to go as far as an anhyzer line with a faster disc.

sidewinder22 10-10-2020 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642169)
Sidewinder sure decided to throw a jab out there. I can jab back. It's childish but I can lower to others level too.

R u SeRiOuS bRo? You have been jabbing at pretty much everyone trying to help you since you been here.

RoDeO 10-10-2020 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3642235)
R u SeRiOuS bRo? You have been jabbing at pretty much everyone trying to help you since you been here.

I think we could all learn new things. Insults aren't productive. I think there's a lot of good advice in your drills. I don't agree with all of them but oh well. There is more than one path to throwing well. There can be more than one philosophy and it may be more effective.

Frisbee-Hanski 10-10-2020 06:49 AM

Excuse me, RodeO, but this thread is about Rocking he Hips!

sidewinder22 10-10-2020 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642242)
I think we could all learn new things. Insults aren't productive. I think there's a lot of good advice in your drills. I don't agree with all of them but oh well. There is more than one path to throwing well. There can be more than one philosophy and it may be more effective.

I agree and I've been down your philosophical rodeo before and it lead to the horns of the bull.

You really need to look yourself in the mirror...
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3608768)
I've always found it humorous when one guy who's not as good, doesn't throw as far, etc, critiques someone who is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3613790)
I'm pretty sure that the guy is rounding a bit. [referring to DGA Instructor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3615742)
You fit the classic profile of those who say "you shouldn't throw that disc until you can throw your putter 300 feet". Whatever.

Who cares what discs I have and how far I can or I can't throw them. The Mamba happens to work well for me as a beginner. It is a "beginner" disc you know. I threw it last night for 360 feet but you will probably just say "you must of been all arming it".

I watch a lot of videos and watch a lot of drills. I've learned a lot from them. But then there's these ones where a gut looks like he's imitating an elephant trunk with his arm and throwing it in a long sweeping arc and I just know that's bad teaching. I understand the whole concept of feeling the weight shift but the arm motion needs to be different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3615723)
I'm not going to go and do windmill drills and throw looking like a clock. And I think it's bad teaching to instruct others to do such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3631941)
Well, if you are off balance like that guy then yeah. [Referring to David Wiggins Jr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640051)
Horrible tip video. Not much I can say. We're not bowling folks. [Referring to Feldberg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640871)
Yeah, it's strong arming. Your shoulders are ahead of your hips in rotation. Strongarming at its finest. [Referring to RandyC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3617124)
You guys aren't any help. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3631656)
I have a theory with distance progression in disc golf in which most distance comes with time after the right muscle groups are built and trained to fire rapidly. My son videoed me the first week I started and surprisingly, my mechanics look almost identical now as back then.

I don't really worry about all these technical points of throwing because I'm of the belief that you just keep trying and your body and mind adjust and work to correct and move more efficiently and more powerfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3612384)
I suffer from the same problem as you with the brace foot position. My son pointed this out to me. Your plant foot is landing open and your hips are already past engagement because of this to get power from your hips. It took me practicing my x step and concentrating on plantibg my brace foot correctly to keep from rushing my hips into rotation too early. Once I figured this out I added 50 feet to my drive almost overnight. I still land open on occasion and I can tell because I don't feel like I'm pulling and pivoting on an axis. It shouldn't feel like you are just swinging around fast but rather whipping your upper body and arm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3635426)
I have been working on keeping my back turned longer and slowing things down a bit in my runup. Also been working on keeping my arm looser until the power pocket.

I don't worry about how my front foot is landing or when my hip is turning.

I wonder how guys like Jarvis learned to throw. By today's teaching standards his mechanics would be garbage. And yet, he can throw farther than almost any person in here. So, I font put much stock in when and how much hip rotation one has into foot plant. Some have a lot and others have very little and it doesn't appear it makes much difference distance wise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3637108)
I do this little drill where I will just go halfway and stop around the point where I bring the disc into my abdomen/chest area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3615780)
I guess if it works for some that's fine. I would never teach the arm motion portion with the disc though. I coached baseball for quite a few years and never liked all the dorky drills where they make motions and pauses, etc, that aren't natural to the specific motion in live speed. I've seen way too many kinks in kids pitching and batting deliveries over the years because of these drills they were taught in their youth. I learned pretty quickly thst your muscles really do memorize motions and incorporate them without you thinking about it. If you do it enough then your body thinks that's what you want to repeat and so it goes autopilot and repeats.

Instead of dangling the arm or swinging it like a pendulum I would suggest that at least on the drive portion side that the arm is actually mimicking a real drive. The reach back can still be a pendulum swing to get that feeling with the weight transfer but once it's to the other side the body now needs to shift planes and think straight through in coming back to the other side.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/EmLZRX.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/2MVEPk.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/w_OHo_.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/sojLt2.gif

RoDeO 10-10-2020 09:29 AM

Gee, didn't realize you were keeping a file of everything I say.

RoDeO 10-10-2020 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3642259)
I agree and I've been down your philosophical rodeo before and it lead to the horns of the bull.

You really need to look yourself in the mirror...













https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/EmLZRX.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/2MVEPk.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/w_OHo_.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/sojLt2.gif

Context is everything. And the context you are missing.

SaROCaM 10-10-2020 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3608768)
I've always found it humorous when one guy who's not as good, doesn't throw as far, etc critiques someone who is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642227)
In my mind I see myself as a 400 foot thrower right now if I can get all the pieces put together.

Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

It doesn't matter how far you see yourself throwing in your mind.

Throwing over 370 a few times doesn't make you a 400' thrower. It doesn't really even mean you are a 370' thrower.

That's like a pitcher saying they throw 90 mph, but in reality they touched 90 measured with a questionable radar gun rather than sitting 90 measured with something as accurate as a Stalker or Jugs.

Can the pitcher sit at 90 mph?

Can the thrower consistently throw 400'?

Can they actually do it, not just in their mind?


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