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pjhayes7 06-14-2021 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728111)
Its looking more and more like the Originals are going away... I wonder if Infinite will just start ordering all the Originals and give them different names? I would LOVE that, especially since Infinite runs all their discs in awesome plastics on a regular basis, instead of just once in a while getting some color glow discs or some metal flakes. Being able to get Color Glow "MD3"s for less than 150$ would be a nice change lol.

If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728152)
If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

BillFleming 06-14-2021 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3728106)
So does that mean that Dismania can have Lat64 make a new mold part and make the "Originals"?.

No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

biscoe 06-14-2021 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728164)
No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728153)
The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3728170)
Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

No, a mold cannot be patented exactly, but not duplicated either unless someone got the original mold pieces and reproduced or had the specs for the mold pieces (and that would be theft if anyone outside Innova did this).

So the point still stands that DM DOES NOT own the molds. They can try to have someone else reproduce the molds as closely as possible, but it will never be exactly the same. If the Originals line is discontinued, the only way you will ever see those discs again is if Innova decides to use them again

soothsayer 06-14-2021 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728171)
Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728164)
No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

This is incorrect. Individual molds are not patented. The molds themselves are owned by Innova. If they were individually patented, there wouldnt be a million Teebird clones by every company out there (same with Firebirds, Destroyers, etc). They could have Lat64 recreate the FD, put a stamp on it called "FD" since they own that name, if they wanted to. It wouldnt be the EXACT mold that is in innovas factory, but with modern technology im sure they could get it damn close.

ray1970 06-14-2021 01:37 PM

Assuming they looked, felt, and flew the same Id bag some opto FDs or classic blend P2s, or a less beefy gold line PD that flew like a beat in S-line right off the shelf. Just saying.

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728175)
Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.


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