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BillFleming 06-14-2021 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728194)
Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up.

And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

soothsayer 06-14-2021 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728194)
I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.

I agree about the top players selling more discs. Side note, you can actually by infinite line discs at many of the top retailers as they have started wholesale sales (thats a weird way of saying it lol). OTB sold a ton of Alpacas once people realized it was basically a P2 and P2s were unavailable. Regardless, I don't think Innova will let those molds go to waste.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728201)
And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

BillFleming 06-14-2021 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728224)
I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728249)
Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

PLOT TWIST: Discmania buys out Innova and cancels production on all Innova molds, dedicating 100% of production to Originals.

tbird888 06-14-2021 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728146)
My point is that they have had more than ample opportunity to insulate their company and not be nearly as dependent of the whims of others.

I think they really dropped the ball on reinvestment into their own infrastructure and they are paying a supreme price for that right now. What's happening now was likely avoidable if they had invested in becoming more independent.

I'm not faulting them for the pandemic - but there has certainly been availability and production issues from 2019 and prior that were never solved.

How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

Ahildy13 06-14-2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbird888 (Post 3728309)
How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

pjhayes7 06-14-2021 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3728353)
This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

Not that they dont want extra cycles on the molds. I am sure the mold pieces for their most popular have been replace multiple times. They don't want those valuable pieces out in the wild so someone could literally copy a firebird, wraith, etc. The peices for the dome part of the disc are probable much easier to duplicate than the valuable bottom and wing pieces that make a disc what it is. Think of the Doritos Locos Tacos at Taco Bell. Frito Lay would never just sell the formula for the flavor to Taco Bell but would gladly license the use of the Doritos nacho flavor.

Now if they had paid Innova to design and make completely unique molds that DM would then own, that would have been a completely different situation. I would hope that is what DM did with Latitude and Yikun and that they own those molds.

Flick Maniac 06-15-2021 05:14 AM

Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

pjhayes7 06-15-2021 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728405)
Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. :popcorn:

What would anyone talk about ever if not for conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too? Obviously i am joking and apologize for any incorrect opinions i have presented as facts, as that was not my intent and also likely not the intent of most users here. The good thing about a forum like this is that there are those with much more actual knowledge who will actively correct misinformation and most people on here i believe are willing to accept that they are wrong and accept new information when it comes to facts.

But half the fun of these forums is sometimes wild and unfounded speculation. Luckily, we are talking about and activity where we throw pieces of plastic at stuff and hopefully no one is hurt by being completely misinformed. I have been away from this forum for about 2 years and i forgot how much i loved it.


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