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soothsayer 06-15-2021 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3728454)
Wonder why Discmania choosed to announce this the day before Worlds start?

IF Eagle wins Worlds, what will his sig, Disc be?!?

The *new* "overstable Innova fairway driver that is suspiciously similar to an FD3" of course!

dehaas 06-15-2021 11:03 AM

Just to play Devil’s advocate a bit…

Nobody has really thrown the idea out there that perhaps DM and Innova renegotiated their previous business agreement.

Just like anything else it’s a negotiable contract. People talk about the availability of Infinite molds recently and lack of DM OG. Whatever deal Infinite has negotiated might have put them in a better position or priority than DM. Nobody knows aside from those involved.

Could be possible Jussi went to Dave and said hey, the current deal is pinching us off, let’s go back to square one and figure it out. Could also be possible if DM felt the contract wasn’t being upheld they’d pursue the legal route, and that led to some renegotiation.

We’ll find out soon enough, but think of this…there was a stretch of a couple months all of us swore up and down there’s no way McBeth would ever leave Innova, especially to move to Discraft. So who knows what kind of craziness we’re about to see.

tbird888 06-15-2021 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

I'm thinking reactively? I can see how that conversation would go.
Jussi: Hey, we want to get the molds for our lineup so we can mold them elsewhere.
Dunipace: You want me to hand you 2/3 of the mold pieces for the Aviar, Firebird, Wraith, Destroyer, etc.? Get bent. Contract terminated.
Jussi: Hey, just trying to be proactive so you don't write me off after I sign contracts with two of your direct competitors for them to make discs for me too.
Dunipace: Security!


Innova uses mold pieces from their most popular discs to make Discmania's molds. Discmania likely had a contract for exclusivity of their molds with Innova. There's no way Innova's going to make new mold pieces for Firebirds, Aviars, Destroyers, and Wraiths to hand over to someone to take to, say, Latitude 64 to have those discs made elsewhere. They'd be a top piece away from being able to make Innova's most popular discs. Innova OWNS the molds. The physical molds. They are the cornerstone of their business. No amount of proactivity is going to change this. The only thing I could possibly see leaving the factory is the Anhyzer top as that was supposedly made specifically for Discmania's molds. Without the lower wing pieces though, why bother?

You can likely look for these molds to be renamed and sold as Infinite products in the near future. And Innova will continue to own the molds, regardless of who's name is on the stamp.

BillFleming 06-15-2021 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3728353)
This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

Innova isn't going to give anyone a copy of their molds or CAD designs. Period.

Look at it this way: the differences are mostly plastic type. Innova makes an Innova X disc using plastics A, B, and C. With the same mold, Innova makes Discmania Y disc with plastic E.

As long as the mold and production are under Innova's control, they can ensure that no Discmania Y disc is made using plastics A, B, or C. So, why would Innova want to lose that control by giving Discmania a copy of the mold and/or the CAD design for the mold?

Now, if Discmania had provided Innova with unique designs for the molds and those unique designs were used ONLY for Discmania discs....that would be different tale.

VictorB 06-15-2021 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3728464)
3. Start to become too popular for the business strategy to the point that you literally cannot keep up with the demand you have generated (Innova was never going to allow molding of a competitor's molds, very friendly but still a competitor, interfere with the capacity to mold their own discs that they make much more money selling.

This was the point that they should have started being more proactive. And I'd put this part of the timeline back in like 2015? Nothing happened. I guess you reap what you sew, and the fields are barren now

VictorB 06-15-2021 11:56 AM

Would they be able to get the mold pieces from Innova? I'm sure they tried at some point, and any discussions about that would be speculation. Maybe Innova was ok with it, and asked a price that DM was unwilling to pay. Maybe Dave D flat out said no. Either way, here we are.

Could DM have done something sooner, to break off the relationship construct as it was initially imagined? Probably, but who knows how it would have happened or if DM would even be here today. If it was destined to end, DM should have done it on their terms. Innova definitely loses something if they no longer have the partnership.

Note: I think that Innova does not own the complete molds - I believe the DM 'anhyzer' top is proprietary. So unless there's a way that they get to 'keep the mold' (for lack of a better term) those DM originals might be dead

Flick Maniac 06-15-2021 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728432)
Welcome to the internet! You must be new here;)

Lol. You can easily see my stats. Been here for a while. Not that it matters really, a persons post is the same value no matter if they have 1 post or 1000 posts. But since you brought it up.

It just rubs me the wrong way when people dont have the full picture. Not that I have it either but Ive seen the growth of the company since 2009, and not just the heyday years. There are a lot more factors than what the simplified image offers. Like DM being part of a bigger company that is a huge wholesale importer of Innova in Europe. Surely that was a pretty big part in the original agreement.

But the discussion is entertaining though, and shows that people care. Its not about rubbing me or not rubbing me (I can get that elsewhere lol)

If you specifically want one piece of incorrect info, see the post about the patent numbers. That was cleared up already by someone else.

Also if someone thinks Innova has like only one physical roundy bit for molding a destroyer, cmon really? That thing breaks up and they stop making Destroyers until new one is machine tooled? Yeah right.

We'll see what happens on the 21st. Hard to imagine a complete break up, as the companies have such a symbiotic relationship with such history, but who knows.

soothsayer 06-15-2021 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flick Maniac (Post 3728521)
Lol. You can easily see my stats. Been here for a while. Not that it matters really, a persons post is the same value no matter if they have 1 post or 1000 posts. But since you brought it up.

It just rubs me the wrong way when people dont have the full picture. Not that I have it either but Ive seen the growth of the company since 2009, and not just the heyday years. There are a lot more factors than what the simplified image offers. Like DM being part of a bigger company that is a huge wholesale importer of Innova in Europe. Surely that was a pretty big part in the original agreement.

But the discussion is entertaining though, and shows that people care. Its not about rubbing me or not rubbing me (I can get that elsewhere lol)

If you specifically want one piece of incorrect info, see the post about the patent numbers. That was cleared up already by someone else.

Also if someone thinks Innova has like only one physical roundy bit for molding a destroyer, cmon really? That thing breaks up and they stop making Destroyers until new one is machine tooled? Yeah right.

We'll see what happens on the 21st. Hard to imagine a complete break up, as the companies have such a symbiotic relationship with such history, but who knows.

hey man, my comment was totally in jest, no offense intended.

I do think its reasonable for people to be speculating about what the heck is going on, especially since DM discs are loved by a lot of people. I don't think any of this is about attacking Innova or DM either.

Also, interesting how all DM stuff is now off of Innovastore.net and has moved to their own website not related to Innova.

SuperWookie 06-16-2021 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728427)
You're thinking reactively. That's the situation we're seeing now - proactive solutions should have been implemented years ago. They weren't - and now Innova has DM as a company by the balls, quite literally. What company or executive, in their right mind, would not account for another company (partner or not) to have so much control over your financial well being?

There's been plenty of time where they could have discussed having molds made of their own discs. Maybe Jussi explored this, maybe he didn't, we likely will never know.

At this point, I think it's safe to say that whatever deals that DM and Innova had were not nearly as air-tight as they might have seemed. Going to L64 and Yikun for manufacturing a couple of years ago was a good indication that Innova was not able to take care of the needs of DM.

Could all of this have been avoided? Probably - they had plenty of time to figure out a plan where they could have manufactured at least some of their own discs.

Regardless - it's no skin off my nose. I stopped throwing DM a long time ago, when they trimmed plastics and older molds around 2016/2017 or so. And now they have one of their top pros throwing OOP plastic (Simon and the C-MD)


Exactly this! DM has been reactive instead of proactive, and that is just bad business. I keep seeing all this speculation talk about this and that. And who knows what is really going on behind the scenes at DM and Innova in regards to producing the Originals line. It's irrelevant though. It all boils down to a few important things:

1. DM has, and has had the two most popular players in their stable for a LONG time. Simon and Eagle. And there are literally no pros out there (other than PMB) that can draw as much interest and sales as Simon and Eagle. These two guys are like the Ken Griffey Jr/ODB Jr/Michael Jordan of disc golf! They absolutely BOMB shots, have insanely great throws (that everyone wants to model their throw on), have electric personalities and exude cool. There are NO other pros like them. There's a reason there are people called DiscMANIACS. Not bashing any other disc golfers, but Simon and Eagle both transcend disc golf. And it's not a new thing that Simon and Eagle are winning. They have been winning for a LONG time. And selling discs for a LONG time. Since the first time I watched pros on youtube, Simon and Eagle stood out like a sore thumb. There are NO other pros like them and you can't put a price tag on that kind of mystique and draw they have.

2. The pandemic is just a hiccup in the overall business timeline for DM and other companies. And as seen by other companies, it's totally possible to continue producing discs and getting them out there. Obviously most production companies have been effected to some degree or another, but it's totally possible to continue producing discs. This is the main problem for DM. They don't make their own product. Which means they are totally dependent on other companies and specifically Innova for making their product (especially the discs everyone wants, which is the Originals line). Meaning, if ANYTHING goes wrong in the relationship, or Innova tells DM they don't have time or resources to make Originals, then DM is screwed. And that is not good planning or business sense. They should have been figuring out ways to make their own plastic YEARS ago. Once again, we don't have all the details. But... if you are sitting on a gold mine like Simon and Eagle, you would think that company would do or pay WHATEVER is necessary to make sure those discs are always available to buy.

DM has had PLENTY of time to realize what kind of gold mine they are sitting on with Simon and Eagle. It's not "new" information that Simon and Eagle sell TONS of gear. They have been the two of the most popular Pros for going on 6 years or more now. So all this talk of DM (possibly) not knowing ahead of time that the molds that Simon/Eagle use would sell so well and blah blah blah is just categorically incorrect. It's very poor planning by DM. They have known for 6+ years that whatever discs Simon and Eagle play, are going to sell through the roof! And should have been planning for the future years ago! Not during the pandemic! It's WAY too late at this point.

And DM has lost a lot of customers at this point, me included. I've moved on to trying other companies and found as good or better stuff. But the mystique and draw that Simon and Eagle create is something that can not be ignored and it really feels like DM has totally dropped the ball in terms of planning and making sure they control their own destiny. And the crazy thing is, if they get their sh*t together and start pumping out Originals and Originals signature models in the next few months, DM sales will once again go through the roof! People will quickly forget that DM had nothing for them for over a year. But who knows what is going to happen. It all just feels sketchy and like something bad is going to happen.

Now having said that, we still don't know what is going on behind the scenes with either DM or Innova. But we can say: the ball is being dropped big time, and DM's sales will continue to fall through the floor if they don't get lots of Originals out soon. And it would be catastrophic if they can't keep Simon and Eagle. People are OBSESSED with these two pros, and want their discs. So hopefully DM and Innova can get this sorted out and get back to making plastic and into the hands of all the fans. Especially all the new fans that have joined this great sport the last year or so!

BillFleming 06-16-2021 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperWookie (Post 3728869)
They have known for 6+ years that whatever discs Simon and Eagle play, are going to sell through the roof!

^^^This!

Can you say Tilt? What a 'worthless' disc - 9/1/1/6. Simon and Eagle say it can't be thrown like a normal disc and works best upside-down. So who would want a disc like that? BUT....Simon designed it and Eagle has thrown it in tournaments....so of course it sells out immediately.


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