Here is a slow motion of Wiggins from a better angle. In the video watch very carefully at the front knee. You will see it kind of jolt and then come upwards. That is the precise moment of brace impact. At that moment, where is the disc? It's pulled in to his abdomen in the power pocket position. Now, at that same moment, look at his hips. They have already substantially rotated. Now, look at the hip and shoulder separation at that moment. His hips are already coming open and his shoulders have just started to rotate. This is that twisting load Im speaking of and it jas to be present at strong brace. The hips have to have already started to rotate at that point.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/j3R94c.gif

The point here isn’t when the hips rotate, where the arm is, etc etc
The point here is this.
The hip doesn’t just *rotate*
If it did, then there would be no point in planting perpendicular to the target, because that inhibits rotation of the hips.
Power does not come from the hips rotating. It comes from the weight of your butt down, mostly from the trail leg. Like pulling down a post.
Take it from me-I can throw 450 with terrible form. Got it videoed, wheeled off, etc etc.
It’s wrong form.
I’m coming over the top and not bracing properly.
Imagine you’re pulling down a post that’s directly in line with, in your case, your left arm that’s out in front of you. Now try and pull that post straight back on one leg with your arm. When you feel it through your heel and you’re using your butt and leg to pull, that’s the feel.
Now imagine instead of a post that’s a disc in your hand. Your back muscle pull the disc to your left as your arm swings out, and your trail leg”pulls” the disc, just like you pulling the post.
That’s the effortless feeling.
That’s the feeling of an effortless shot.
The arm simply acts to keep tension on and aim the disc, but it’s a pull-just like pulling a post out of the ground.
You can’t get much of any force pulling a post out of the ground by Simply spinning your hips without leveraging your trail side against the post.

Okay one more time. You are missing the point. Torso does not rotate. Shoulders do not rotate get it ? They rotate because they move on top of your pelvis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od9dI5Wrkfo

The disc is ejected because you are converting torque, or rotational Force, and transfering out through the arm lever into a straight line. That torque, or twisting force is generated from the legs up. The torque or twist creates a lag as the hips rotate first and the shoulders are behind.

The brace helps facilitate rotation. But the brace isn't what initiates rotation.

Hips rotate shoulders just like biceps lift your forearm. So there is no hips rotate first and then the shoulders rotate. There is just hips rotate shoulders. So to say shoulders rotate first is like saying my forearm lifts up and then my bicep follows.

Let me say it a different way- in the throw, the degree angle of the hip in relation to the angle of the shoulders is different. The hips turn and the shoulders lag behind. You do know what hip to shoulder separation is don't you? Here
https://www.stack.com/a/hip-and-shou...throwing%20arm.

Pfff bit different when you pitch versus backhand. See how everything is unwinding together front hip and shoulders in sync. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

His hip is not one bit ahead of his shoulders because hips rotate shoulders.

Watch carefully. His hips start to rotate just before his shoulders.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/c2z9u5.gif

I am not sure how many times do I need to say this, hips rotate shoulders.

You could not have had the same discussion for dozens of posts, in the thread with dozens of the same posts in it already?

Yes, we both agree that the hips/ torso rotate the shoulders. That's not what we have been debating. What we are discussing is that the hips lead the shoulders in rotation and that rotation of the hips begin before strong brace.

The hips (wiggle/move/twitch/rock) SHIFT weight to the lead leg, then hips rotate on the lead leg. Weight is shifting ALREADY, then the power rotation occurs. Nanoseconds early/late are outliers, not the rule. There are also stylistic differences between players, but the body mechanics determine the essentials of pull/throw. Players are free to wiggle their whatevers and throw however they please. But until I get the proper body mechanics, I’ll never reach my individual max. If I am rotating my hips before my lead foot is braced, I will always be short of my max.

Well, whether you think you do or not, the only way you will ever throw like every pro player, is to get the hip rotation initiated before strong brace (full weight shift) because that's what every pro does. I started throwing RHBH and I swore I was using my hips. I found out after I started LHBH that I was never using my hips, it was all arm. It's funny now that my right arm is healed that I use it for my layup shots within 250 feet and just basically strong arm the disc. I try to use my hips more on the right but in general it's all arm. Throwing LHBH is super easy and the discs fly really easy. I can actually feel my hips and torso torquing the shoulder and arm and whipping it. You can get to where you can feel that torque loading up from hip rotation as you pull the disc into the power pocket before the shoulders rotate the disc into release.

These guys are maxing around 300' and clearly rotating their hips before "strong brace moment".
They should be throwing over them mountains according to your philosophy.

Let me ask you something- when you first started were you throwing at 300 feet or below or did you just puck up a disc one day and your first throws were 300+?
Also, not to be rude but I doubt you threw well at all when you first started. Oh yeah, you broke your back and leg, I forgot.

I’m interested in your comments on the form in those videos.

haha, move the goal post!

Holy f**k dude. No one cares how far someone throws when they first started. How does this have anything to do with your philosophy of throwing?

Absolutely no one throws far when they first start throwing. The difference is that some people have the ability to think straight and try and learn regular good form. They will be throwing further as they improve their form. Your philosophy breaks the standard laws of form.

Think about running. You push forward with your leg to land forward with your other leg and push with that leg to land on the other etc... Everytime you land on either leg, the hips swivel to the direction of which leg you land on. You can try slowmotion running.

Now try to rotate to that direction BEFORE the leg has landed on it. Not a lot of power/speed coming out of that now huh?

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Well, it clearly looks like two new guys learning how to throw. The guy on top is better than the guy on the bottom, he mostly just needs to get quicker muscle firings. The guy on the bottom just needs to watch some pros throwing for a while and start over.

Sidewinder sure decided to throw a jab out there. I can jab back. It's childish but I can lower to others level too.

Then let's see that 450' throw.

You didn't notice the major flaw in their lower body? They're planting toes first and already opened up their hips.

Nothing substantive here. I thought you had a refined understanding of how to throw?

It doesn't happen overnight. Let me ask- what's the average timeframe for a person to get to 450 feet? Several years I'm betting at least, if they even get there, right?

Yeah I noticed. Not a big deal with the top guy, just a few tweaks here and there. Players generally figure out most things on their own from trial and error. The guy on the bottom has so much wrong going on I don't know where to begin other than he needs to just start over.

It's a cool video. It's interesting to me that it appears his mechanics didnt really change that much over the years. Looks most like his muscles became better conditioned to fire quicker through lots of dedication and hard work. He has his own unique signature on his throw just like everyone else. Is his the most efficient? Who knows? Question I ask is- it seems like it took him a long time to get to 500 feet. Maybe that's just how it is. Could he have gotten there without those drills helping him? Maybe so. Maybe he could of got there sooner with different drills. Who knows?

The point is, right now you are a ~350' thrower. Your understanding and analysis when you watch people throwing is that of a 350' thrower. You are identifying and focusing on the things that a 350' thrower focuses on. This is true because (1) you are a 350' thrower and (2) those who are throwing 450'+ are not focusing on those things.

Getting to 450'* takes time, it is true. But I wouldn't be surprised if during the time it takes you to get to 450' (if you get there) you end up with a different understanding of the throw than you currently have.

*Getting way ahead; gotta get to 400' first.

They change quite a bit; compare the 350' throws (especially around the 0:27 mark) to the 450' throw.

Interesting that in his next video he starts doing this sweep drill and his velocity drops 10 mph even though he says it felt good. That's what happens when you inhibit hip rotation.

He basically just gets faster and more efficient. You can tell it's the same guy throwing from beginning to end.

I probably will get a different understanding. In my mind I see myself as a 400 foot thrower right now if I can get all the pieces put together. I've thrown over 370 several times and know it's in there when I get everything just right. At this point it's repetition and building muscle memory to be consistant. This past few weeks I've had to start learning the hyzer flip because my discs I have were turning and I havent bought new discs. Plus, learning to hyzer flip is a must have anyway. I have this light flippy Jade disc and I am just learning to get it to hyzer flip and then s curve out to about 330 feet. For me that's great distance for that technique right now. I'm just learning also that straight laser shots aren't really going to go 400 feet and that I must employ angles and different release planes to get out farther. I am getting to where I can throw a hyzer shot to 300 feet now and have it hyzer the whole way.

Where Im at now compared to 3 months ago when I first started LHBH is pretty much the same mechanics I feel, just quicker now. The big change is understanding how the numbers on the disc are and why that's important. When I started I just threw everything on a flat release. Now I use different angles depending on my desire and the disc Im using. When I practice max distance it's my fastest disc on an anhyzer line. Right now though I have fallen in love with the hyzer flip even though I can't get it to go as far as an anhyzer line with a faster disc.

R u SeRiOuS bRo? You have been jabbing at pretty much everyone trying to help you since you been here.

I think we could all learn new things. Insults aren't productive. I think there's a lot of good advice in your drills. I don't agree with all of them but oh well. There is more than one path to throwing well. There can be more than one philosophy and it may be more effective.

Excuse me, RodeO, but this thread is about Rocking he Hips!

I agree and I've been down your philosophical rodeo before and it lead to the horns of the bull.

You really need to look yourself in the mirror...
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/EmLZRX.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/2MVEPk.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/w_OHo_.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/sojLt2.gif

Gee, didn't realize you were keeping a file of everything I say.

Context is everything. And the context you are missing.

Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

It doesn't matter how far you see yourself throwing in your mind.

Throwing over 370 a few times doesn't make you a 400' thrower. It doesn't really even mean you are a 370' thrower.

That's like a pitcher saying they throw 90 mph, but in reality they touched 90 measured with a questionable radar gun rather than sitting 90 measured with something as accurate as a Stalker or Jugs.

Can the pitcher sit at 90 mph?

Can the thrower consistently throw 400'?

Can they actually do it, not just in their mind?