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fishballer06 06-04-2021 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose33 (Post 3725294)
Anyone tossing the Enigma around at all?

I took my DD3 out of my bag in lieu of the vapor Enigma run. For my 360' of power, the Enigma is a little less beef for my arm speed. I still prefer the DD3 for FH's, but the Engima definitely gives me the most control/distance for a driver when thrown BH.

skizzle34 06-04-2021 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose33 (Post 3725294)
Anyone tossing the Enigma around at all? Went to a shop I really like to support the few times per year I’d get to this area and they had a couple of Enigmas and just about only Champ Destroyers and domey AF Firebirds otherwise so I grabbed one to support the shop.

Feels like a D2, and thought that I may do a video with it and a couple of other similar drivers.

I bag vapor enigmas as my max distance or hyzer flip distance driver. They are great discs for tight wooded shots. I have found that they like to hold turn if ripped on an anny which gets me every now and again but I love them.

fishballer06 06-04-2021 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skizzle34 (Post 3725400)
I bag vapor enigmas as my max distance or hyzer flip distance driver. I have found that they like to hold turn if ripped on an anny which gets me every now and again but I love them.

I've found the same. Reminds me more of my CD3's than my DD3's in that regard.

skizzle34 06-04-2021 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishballer06 (Post 3725452)
I've found the same. Reminds me more of my CD3's than my DD3's in that regard.

Yes definitely more CD3 than DD3. I naturally release shots on hyzer so they have actually taken a lot of shots away from my DD3 lately. For my next trick I want to learn hyzer flip forehands with them I feel like they will absolutely bomb.

Lastchancer88 06-07-2021 04:18 PM

How does vapor compare to neo in terms of stability and durability?

ray1970 06-08-2021 12:28 PM

Saw the new Splice went on sale at 9 a.m.

Looked at 9:02 and they were sold out.

Kudos to Discmania for being able to sell out of the Evolution line discs pretty much instantly.

seedlings 06-08-2021 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray1970 (Post 3726548)
Saw the new Splice went on sale at 9 a.m.

Looked at 9:02 and they were sold out.

Kudos to Discmania for being able to sell out of the Evolution line discs pretty much instantly.

Smash bros lead card doesn’t hurt.

fishballer06 06-08-2021 04:23 PM

Pretty cool that the Primal Splice's will all be stamped with Eagle's win on them.

ManU 06-08-2021 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lastchancer88 (Post 3726294)
How does vapor compare to neo in terms of stability and durability?

slightly less stable and maybe slightly less durable

Vapor is Fuzion / Gold Line (Star equivalent)
Neo is Lucid / Opto (Champion equivalent)

I will say that if you are a fan of the old school opaque Lucid / Opto plastics (like from when Truths were first released) then a lot of the Neo will appeal.

It has the same kind of swirly opaqueness of that older run rather than the "newer" translucent / transparent type appearance.

Lastchancer88 06-08-2021 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManU (Post 3726678)
slightly less stable and maybe slightly less durable

Vapor is Fuzion / Gold Line (Star equivalent)
Neo is Lucid / Opto (Champion equivalent)

I will say that if you are a fan of the old school opaque Lucid / Opto plastics (like from when Truths were first released) then a lot of the Neo will appeal.

It has the same kind of swirly opaqueness of that older run rather than the "newer" translucent / transparent type appearance.

Thanks for that. I have a few neo discs, and was sorta hoping the vapor would be a little more stable but I managed to scoop a Triumph Splice so that will fill the slot and pair nicely if I also snag a Piironen Instinct. My wallet is the only thing that doesn't pair nicely :D

seedlings 06-11-2021 09:21 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Discmania_Support (Post 3721261)
This is very accurate. Every product in the world is in high demand. It just feels closer to the heart for it to also include golf discs. The world will be in good order some day but every industry right now is experiencing plenty of hurdles to overcome, regardless of the products they create or sell.


Tough questions for sure. The best answer we can give is that we'll release the most accurate information to give as soon as we have it. Getting Originals back in stock has and always be a top priority

Uh-oh. Perhaps the business decision of getting Originals back in stock has been made?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1623457155

robdeforge 06-11-2021 10:00 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3727687)
Uh-oh. Perhaps the business decision of getting Originals back in stock has been made?

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1623457155

maybe, maybe not? honestly a little hard for me to tell haha

soothsayer 06-12-2021 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robdeforge (Post 3727695)
maybe, maybe not? honestly a little hard for me to tell haha


Right? Like enough with the secrecy. If they are cutting ties with Innova and OOP'ing the Originals line, just say that. Why hint at things and say there will be an announcement on the 21st? Like either say what it is NOW or wait until the 21st to say anything... ugh. Can you tell im frustrated? lol :doh::doh::wall::wall:

pjhayes7 06-13-2021 12:20 AM

This makes me really sad and i don't throw any Discmania. Does Discmania own the molds for there Originals line or do the just pay Innova to mold them and they have "exclusive" rights to those molds? What i mean is, could they take the molds to someone else?

wolfhaley 06-13-2021 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjhayes7 (Post 3727877)
This makes me really sad and i don't throw any Discmania. Does Discmania own the molds for there Originals line or do the just pay Innova to mold them and they have "exclusive" rights to those molds? What i mean is, could they take the molds to someone else?

If Discmania owned them, Lat64 would be pumping out the originals line now over literally every Trilogy mold. I bet Innova didn't take too kindly to DM partnering with other companies to mold their discs. Whether it's originals or active or evolution. It's still Discmania. It seems like they bit the hand that fed them, and that bit them in the ass.

Rastnav 06-13-2021 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhaley (Post 3727888)
If Discmania owned them, Lat64 would be pumping out the originals line now over literally every Trilogy mold. I bet Innova didn't take too kindly to DM partnering with other companies to mold their discs. Whether it's originals or active or evolution. It's still Discmania. It seems like they bit the hand that fed them, and that bit them in the ass.

Or, Discmania asked Innova to do production from original molds that Discmania owns and Innova declined. Or Discmania needed more production or the original line and Innova gave them the runaround. Or, who knows.

Unless you have actual knowledge of what happened, speculation is just that.

seedlings 06-13-2021 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastnav (Post 3727913)
Or, Discmania asked Innova to do production from original molds that Discmania owns and Innova declined. Or Discmania needed more production or the original line and Innova gave them the runaround. Or, who knows.

Unless you have actual knowledge of what happened, speculation is just that.

We’ll find out a week from Tomorrow on the 21st, right?

Rastnav 06-13-2021 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3727958)
We’ll find out a week from Tomorrow on the 21st, right?

We’ll find out something on the 21st. It might just be an announcement about future production, without too much emphasis on why.

I think what we will get is a version of the story that Discmania chooses to tell, and then Innova will tell some version of the story, and then people will argue about what the “truth” actually is. To some extent, both versions are likely to be partially true, and from a certain perspective.

Whether we ever get anything past that? Who knows. It also depends on whether there will be any ongoing relationship between Innova and Discmania. I have no idea if they are announcing limited future availability, unknown future availability, or some sort of complete break between the brands.

seedlings 06-13-2021 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastnav (Post 3727970)
We’ll find out something on the 21st. It might just be an announcement about future production, without too much emphasis on why.

I think what we will get is a version of the story that Discmania chooses to tell, and then Innova will tell some version of the story, and then people will argue about what the “truth” actually is. To some extent, both versions are likely to be partially true, and from a certain perspective.

Whether we ever get anything past that? Who knows. It also depends on whether there will be any ongoing relationship between Innova and Discmania. I have no idea if they are announcing limited future availability, unknown future availability, or some sort of complete break between the brands.

Discmania could have a strong future without Originals if Simon and Eagle will change their bag enough. Because the next speculation discussion will revolve around sponsorships.

wims 06-13-2021 05:50 PM

I seriously doubt that Discmania will drop the Original line. I'm guessing the announcement is about when they are estimating getting originals back in production

soothsayer 06-13-2021 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wims (Post 3728008)
I seriously doubt that Discmania will drop the Original line. I'm guessing the announcement is about when they are estimating getting originals back in production

We can dream...

pjhayes7 06-13-2021 09:40 PM

If i had to guess, and that is all any of us are really doing, Innova owns the molds and just gives Discmania "exclusive use" of the mold piece combinations used to make the Originals. But of course there is the speculation that there are several non Discmania molds that are the exact same as the P2. Either way, if i had to bet, the announcement will probably be a halt in production for the rest of the year or so.

Although i would not put it past Innova, especially if they own the molds, that they are dissolving the relationship and will then begin molding the most popular as special releases to be sold kind of like the tour series discs.

Ultimately, this all depends on the contracts between the two companies and how strong one side is compared to the other.

sandelius 06-14-2021 03:32 AM

I believe Discmania drops Originals line. Discmania has non-disc golfer board members. They don't care if some die hard fans don't get to throw Originals molds. They care if one of the three manufacturers does not cooperate.

wolfhaley 06-14-2021 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandelius (Post 3728095)
I believe Discmania drops Originals line. Discmania has non-disc golfer board members. They don't care if some die hard fans don't get to throw Originals molds. They care if one of the three manufacturers does not cooperate.

That's what it's looking like to me too. Not by their choice though. Westside is still a thing because of the "Trilogy" moniker, but they've done nothing to really keep that ship afloat. Discmania is a huge draw. It just feels like a Lat 64/Discmania merger is in the offing. If you can't beat em, join em.

Jolt 06-14-2021 04:50 AM

Who owns Lat64? and how own Discmania?

Rol6566 06-14-2021 07:31 AM

Newest post per Jussi on Facebook

"I have got a massive amount of questions and comments about Discmania Originals from our fans. Many of them are about molds and rights. To clarify:
Innova owns all molds and mold parts that are used to make Discmania Originals. They control that. Discmania own all their disc names."

Jolt 06-14-2021 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rol6566 (Post 3728104)
Newest post per Jussi on Facebook

"I have got a massive amount of questions and comments about Discmania Originals from our fans. Many of them are about molds and rights. To clarify:
Innova owns all molds and mold parts that are used to make Discmania Originals. They control that. Discmania own all their disc names."

So does that mean that Dismania can have Lat64 make a new mold part and make the "Originals"?
If Discmania owns the name FD2 then they could just let Lat64 make a disc and then call it "FD2"

"New Originals" - - like "new Coke", and we know how that worked out. . .

soothsayer 06-14-2021 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rol6566 (Post 3728104)
Newest post per Jussi on Facebook

"I have got a massive amount of questions and comments about Discmania Originals from our fans. Many of them are about molds and rights. To clarify:
Innova owns all molds and mold parts that are used to make Discmania Originals. They control that. Discmania own all their disc names."

Its looking more and more like the Originals are going away... I wonder if Infinite will just start ordering all the Originals and give them different names? I would LOVE that, especially since Infinite runs all their discs in awesome plastics on a regular basis, instead of just once in a while getting some color glow discs or some metal flakes. Being able to get Color Glow "MD3"s for less than 150$ would be a nice change lol.

VictorB 06-14-2021 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3728106)
So does that mean that Dismania can have Lat64 make a new mold part and make the "Originals"?
If Discmania owns the name FD2 then they could just let Lat64 make a disc and then call it "FD2"

"New Originals" - - like "new Coke", and we know how that worked out. . .

Sure, if they re-submit the new mold for approval. Nothing stopping them from changing what an FD2 is.


I feel like DM/Jussi really f'd this whole thing up. Years ago they could have re-invested in their company and infrastructure and figured out a way to procure the Innova owned molds to press their own discs. Now, they're left with begging for the scraps of time that other companies can afford to give them during the biggest disc golf boon the sport has ever seen. I think that they took a shortcut and it's going to kill their business in the end, especially if they discontinue the originals line. Would Simon and Eagle even stay on board if they can't get the discs they need? Their best discs are basically entirely from the originals line, not to mention all of their signature discs.

For a company that is relatively the same age, look at what MVP has done by reinvesting into their own company. I think that if Discmania had made that decision years ago to press their own discs, they could have enjoyed the same success that MVP has

soothsayer 06-14-2021 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728115)
Sure, if they re-submit the new mold for approval. Nothing stopping them from changing what an FD2 is.


I feel like DM/Jussi really f'd this whole thing up. Years ago they could have re-invested in their company and infrastructure and figured out a way to procure the Innova owned molds to press their own discs. Now, they're left with begging for the scraps of time that other companies can afford to give them during the biggest disc golf boon the sport has ever seen. I think that they took a shortcut and it's going to kill their business in the end, especially if they discontinue the originals line. Would Simon and Eagle even stay on board if they can't get the discs they need? Their best discs are basically entirely from the originals line, not to mention all of their signature discs.

For a company that is relatively the same age, look at what MVP has done by reinvesting into their own company. I think that if Discmania had made that decision years ago to press their own discs, they could have enjoyed the same success that MVP has


Agreed. Also, I wonder how much Simon and Eagle have missed out on disc sales compared to other pros. For example, the Innova tour series has been pumping out discs for the champion and star teams pretty much all year and those things basically all sell out, every time. The best Discmania could do was put some extra stamps on some Evo line discs for Eagle winning Pro Tour events, or sell some leftover Tilts when EAGLE won the LVC. I understand their loyalty of course, but these are two of the most marketable pros in the game, and signature/tour series discs would INSTANTLY sell out for them every time. They are for sure losing money by not having their discs available all the time (or even AT ALL).

I think one of the reasons they decided to start pumping out overstable discs in the Evo line is so Eagle can actually bag the molds (Splice, Mutant, Razor Claw 2). And making a P2-alike disc in the Logic. I wonder what will happen when they can't throw the DD3/Cloudbreakers anymore or putt with P2s...

Of course, this is all pure speculation at this point, but its looking more and more likely.

seedlings 06-14-2021 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastnav (Post 3727970)
We’ll find out something on the 21st. It might just be an announcement about future production, without too much emphasis on why.

I think what we will get is a version of the story that Discmania chooses to tell, and then Innova will tell some version of the story, and then people will argue about what the “truth” actually is. To some extent, both versions are likely to be partially true, and from a certain perspective.

Whether we ever get anything past that? Who knows. It also depends on whether there will be any ongoing relationship between Innova and Discmania. I have no idea if they are announcing limited future availability, unknown future availability, or some sort of complete break between the brands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rol6566 (Post 3728104)
Newest post per Jussi on Facebook

"I have got a massive amount of questions and comments about Discmania Originals from our fans. Many of them are about molds and rights. To clarify:
Innova owns all molds and mold parts that are used to make Discmania Originals. They control that. Discmania own all their disc names."


This was easy to see coming... and now we know why.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 10:10 AM

Remember all those times Simon threw the Shadow Titan in Portland? /S

seedlings 06-14-2021 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3728125)
Remember all those times Simon threw the Shadow Titan in Portland? /S

Usually his approach after an Enigma drive, iirc.

TheOtherBill 06-14-2021 10:36 AM

IIRC Jussi had to DNF an event years ago to travel to see a sick family member. Since then he has spent a lot of time of the Discgolfpark work and moved his focus from making discs. No way to see this COVID surge coming, or even Simon's injury and well-publicized return, or even the amazing success Eagle has had this year to drive sales crazy.

It was a sort of perfect storm that coincided with the timing of the Innova/Discmania molding agreement.

VictorB 06-14-2021 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOtherBill (Post 3728136)
IIRC Jussi had to DNF an event years ago to travel to see a sick family member. Since then he has spent a lot of time of the Discgolfpark work and moved his focus from making discs. No way to see this COVID surge coming, or even Simon's injury and well-publicized return, or even the amazing success Eagle has had this year to drive sales crazy.

It was a sort of perfect storm that coincided with the timing of the Innova/Discmania molding agreement.


I think this angle would be more buyable if the company hadn't been around for 15 years already. I find it really hard to believe that the recent success of the last 4 years has snuck up in them in a way they couldn't act on it

Rastnav 06-14-2021 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3728122)
This was easy to see coming... and now we know why.

a) We don’t know what exactly is coming.
b) Every brand has had issues with supply meeting demand in the pandemic, although this is also clearly more than just that.
c) Any, and I mean any, partnership between two different companies can go south, but it’s hardly inevitable. You may ask yourself, is this Infinite Disc's beautiful house? (i.e. Do you think Infinite Discs is currently making a mistake? Probably not, right?)
d) It’s always been known (I believe) that Discmania OL discs were reshuffled tops and bottoms of existing Innova molds. That Innova owns those molds and mold designs should not be a surprise. I don’t think this is really new info.
e) For those who think that Discmania should have taken steps to ensure they weren’t in this situation, by owning their own molds and making sure their production wasn’t completely controlled by Innova, what makes you think that the issues now aren’t directly tied to DM doing just that? Sourcing manufacturing from other sources is the quickest path to getting their own molds out there. Yeah, it’s probably in DMs best interest long term to bring manufacturing in-house, but waiting on that would delay the ownership of molds (assuming that DM does own the molds of the new lines).
f) The cluster-effness of this is greatly exaggerated by the double-whammy of Simon and Eagle hitting huge at exactly the same time as COVID bringing unprecedented growth to the game. That was certainly not predictable 2 years ago. Blaming DM for failing to be completely ready for a global pandemic to hit is a very “hindsight is 20/20”.

biscoe 06-14-2021 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3728140)
I think this angle would be more buyable if the company hadn't been around for 15 years already. I find it really hard to believe that the recent success of the last 4 years has snuck up in them in a way they couldn't act on it

They were acting on the last 4 years when they expanded their lines. The issues are from the last 15 months which have screwed up pretty much every company in the industry.

VictorB 06-14-2021 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3728145)
They were acting on the last 4 years when they expanded their lines. The issues are from the last 15 months which have screwed up pretty much every company in the industry.

My point is that they have had more than ample opportunity to insulate their company and not be nearly as dependent of the whims of others.

I think they really dropped the ball on reinvestment into their own infrastructure and they are paying a supreme price for that right now. What's happening now was likely avoidable if they had invested in becoming more independent.

I'm not faulting them for the pandemic - but there has certainly been availability and production issues from 2019 and prior that were never solved.

seedlings 06-14-2021 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastnav (Post 3728141)
a) We don’t know what exactly is coming.
b) Every brand has had issues with supply meeting demand in the pandemic, although this is also clearly more than just that.
c) Any, and I mean any, partnership between two different companies can go south, but it’s hardly inevitable. You may ask yourself, is this Infinite Disc's beautiful house? (i.e. Do you think Infinite Discs is currently making a mistake? Probably not, right?)
d) It’s always been known (I believe) that Discmania OL discs were reshuffled tops and bottoms of existing Innova molds. That Innova owns those molds and mold designs should not be a surprise. I don’t think this is really new info.
e) For those who think that Discmania should have taken steps to ensure they weren’t in this situation, by owning their own molds and making sure their production wasn’t completely controlled by Innova, what makes you think that the issues now aren’t directly tied to DM doing just that? Sourcing manufacturing from other sources is the quickest path to getting their own molds out there. Yeah, it’s probably in DMs best interest long term to bring manufacturing in-house, but waiting on that would delay the ownership of molds (assuming that DM does own the molds of the new lines).
f) The cluster-effness of this is greatly exaggerated by the double-whammy of Simon and Eagle hitting huge at exactly the same time as COVID bringing unprecedented growth to the game. That was certainly not predictable 2 years ago. Blaming DM for failing to be completely ready for a global pandemic to hit is a very “hindsight is 20/20”.

Well at least DM will fill us in as early as next week on the issue from over a year ago when they added L64 and Yikun, frustrating relationship with Innova?

Look, I was just getting 8nto disc golf last year and figuring out discs and brands and discovering what I liked and what discs I wanted to add. Eagle and Simon are certainly influencers with more personality than some other high profile pros. Just about the time I can start throwing discs the way they were supposed to fly, I can’t buy another P2. I can’t try an MD, let alone throw a DD3. I had no problem waiting until covid settled down and discs were being made again. It just turns out they’re not the discs I’d delayed hopes to incorporate into my game.

But, I’m a one-off random guy on the internet, so no big loss for DM. I’ll politely bow out of the discussion unless there is Original stock coming back.

soothsayer 06-14-2021 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3728145)
They were acting on the last 4 years when they expanded their lines. The issues are from the last 15 months which have screwed up pretty much every company in the industry.

Except almost every other company has been able to beef up production (MVP, Discraft, even Innova producing tons of discs for Infinite).


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