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-   -   Am Payouts stifle pro growth? (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134052)

Karl 05-06-2019 01:58 PM

I'm okay with the way monies are presently "distributed" AS LONG AS EVERY PLAYER ("pro" and am alike) EQUALLY share in the 'expenses' incurred to put on an event. These include, but are limited to: sanctioning fees, port-o-potties, insurances, etc, etc, etc.

riltim 05-06-2019 02:03 PM

I understand the "you are paying for an experience" comment and I agree with it.

My issue is what difference in experience is an Am getting from a Open player that justifies a portion of their payment being shifted to another division?

Three Putt 05-06-2019 02:10 PM

This is an argument as old as amateur disc golf (which is about 10 years younger than "pro" disc golf for those of you who don't know how we got here.) After Kransco pulled the Wham-O brand out of Frisbee spots and the IFA disappeared, there was no more corporate money. We had this painfully small pool of money, most of which was generated by what we paid in. We then took this painfully small pool of money and complained endlessly about how it was distributed. The Pros should get more. No, the Am's should get more. The TD should be paid. No, the TD is a volunteer and all the money should be in the payout.

The wholesale/retail differential money for the Amateur prize pool got to be a big controversy at some point. Some people thought if you bought a disc wholesale for $5, it should count $5 against the Amateur prize pool. Others argued that the value of that disc was the $8 and it was up to the TD what happened to the other $3. I've long given Bruce Brakel credit for naming the latter practice the "AM Scam" and loudly denouncing the practice.

Here was my issue with Bruce Brakel math: the value of the event was based on a penny for penny accounting of every division getting every penny they paid in back in the payout. In that math, the value of the experience is $0. The value of playing in a well organized disc golf event on a well-maintained course should not be $0 IMO. But, it is when you follow all the pennies and demand that all the money in has to be in the payout.

My background is recreation programming, and when I got involved in disc golf I was shocked at how disc golf finances were structured. Way way way way WAY too much of the money was going into payouts. So much money was expected to go into the payout that there was no way to run an event and actually cover costs. The whole system was based on loading a huge burden of organization and course preparation on the backs of volunteers. You don't see that in other events. In Softball you would pay $350/team and nobody would expect that the payout for a 10-team league would equal $3,500. You maintain fields and pay for lights and pay for umpires, plus (gasp!) you have to make some money to stay in business. So the actual end of season payout to the teams was more like $300. Nobody complained about that, you had to pay a certain amount for us to provide the experience and you were paying for the experience.

IMO that's a big problem with disc golf. If you don't value the experience enough to pay for it, then we are on a road to nowhere.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448484)
Profit is what you bring home at the end of the day, not what you shuffle around. If the TD were including the tournament profits as income on their taxes would they declare the added cash to open as profit?

Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

Three Putt 05-06-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448494)
Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

I think the question is "You won $40 worth of merchandise. The retail value of the merchandise is $40, but the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

What actually happens to the $10 should be irrelevant. Either you feel like you got ripped off or you don't.

JRW III 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

The difference between the wholesale and retail basically funds the expenses tournaments. If you take that out, how would you replace it? Would take outside money (sponsors, fundraisers, etc) to maintain the 100% (ish) payouts if the AMs went to cash as well as the pros.

Cgkdisc 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448494)
Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

Is a banquet hall owner allowed to host a dinner party and use the difference in wholesale to retail food pricing as they see fit or is a home owner allowed to host a dinner party from their own generosity with zero gain (pot luck/BYOB) or at a loss?

riltim 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3448496)
the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

More like the TD paid $10-15. I have been part of organizing multiple charity c-tiers and a TD can get a Premium plastic disc for $6.50 and custom t-shirts for $2-3.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3448496)
I think the question is "You won $40 worth of merchandise. The retail value of the merchandise is $40, but the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

What actually happens to the $10 should be irrelevant. Either you feel like you got ripped off or you don't.

It seems that many ams feel the wholesale to retail difference is a “ripoff.”

There is a TD in my area who runs events (typically unsanctioned) who’s payouts I disagree with. I don’t play his events. I don’t tell him he’s wrong.

JC17393 05-06-2019 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448491)
I understand the "you are paying for an experience" comment and I agree with it.

My issue is what difference in experience is an Am getting from a Open player that justifies a portion of their payment being shifted to another division?

If that portion were being shifted with no compensation to the am player, you'd have a point. But if the amateur player is paying $40 and getting $40 worth of product (or, say $20 worth and the opportunity, with good play, to win more than $20 worth of additional product), how is that player's experience diminished?

I guess what I'm bumping on in this discussion is why anyone else can add money to the purse via sponsorship, perhaps through selling a product to raise funds, but when the TD/club does it, it's somehow robbing Peter to pay Paul and wrong. If the club were selling CryZtal Buzzzes as a fundraiser for the tournament, would you insist on only paying $15 instead of $25 for that Buzzz because you want the disc but not to put any of "your" money into the pro purse? How is that different than paying a $25 entry and getting $25 worth of merchandise and swag, let alone the "experience"?


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