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-   -   Am Payouts stifle pro growth? (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134052)

DiscFifty 05-04-2019 01:32 AM

Am Payouts stifle pro growth?
 
Would there be more players turning pro (or at least sooner?) if ams didn't get pay outs such as merch, player packs, etc? :popcorn:

Armus Patheticus 05-04-2019 02:49 AM

Pro... hilarious.

DavidSauls 05-04-2019 07:53 AM

Are you changing any other parameters in your hypothetical?

If tournaments had the same entry fees and players packs, but no payouts, maybe some people would move up....but maybe ams would play fewer tournaments, and there'd be fewer players in the pipeline. And for those that are there, the opportunity to pay an even higher entry fee for a small chance at winning something might not be enticing.

Of course, you could change any number of variables---entry fee, players pack, funds to pro purse---and get different results.

Fewer Ams might also mean lower purses in the Pro division, as TDs wouldn't be able to profit off the margin on all that merch, to either sponsor the pros or cover event expenses.

Perhaps instructive are the events where the Am division is trophy-only. Ams still fill those divisions, rather than moving up.

*

The counter question would be, would it matter? Would having more of the current Ams play in Pro divisions do any good for the TD or the sport? The only people who I see would benefit would be the people who are already playing Pro and winning, as they'd have more money in the purse from the additional players who aren't winning anything.

ohtobediscing 05-04-2019 09:02 AM

Am participation in tournaments would disappear, which would definitely cut pro payouts. For the events I see occurring in Portland /Biloxi /Boise, there don't seem to be enough pros to fill them (except BSF).

elmexdela 05-04-2019 09:05 AM

why does anyone need a handout

read between the lines

jeffmonty 05-04-2019 11:39 AM

I personally am playing fewer tournaments already now because the entry fees have gone up so much to pad the pro purse. I don't care about paying pros, and I don't need more towels/minis/koozies in a player's pack, so the value isn't in it for me anymore. Why pay $70 to play with a bunch of guys I already pay nothing to play all the time with?

I'm alot more selective now.

jmdaire27 05-04-2019 01:29 PM

Maybe for individuals like myself, no. Truth be told, I don’t really care. I’d just hope those who can compete at higher levels locally actually do, instead of “bagging.”

I like playing tourneys. I will play in ~a handful a year. I have a goal to improve my rating and eventually make it to “pro” status. I hope to play pro at some point (aside from local unsanctioned events where pro is arbitrary; I usually play pro there, fwiw).

That being said, I have the desire to play more C tiers than higher, these days. I like to get in two rounds in a day, it is less expensive, and the overall demeanor is more lax.

Anyway, I think the future growth of the sport starts with the AMs. Get more people involved at lower levels and participation/attendance will grow.

DiscFifty 05-04-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmonty (Post 3447942)
I don't need more towels/minis/koozies in a player's pack, so the value isn't in it for me anymore. Why pay $70 to play with a bunch of guys I already pay nothing to play all the time with?

I 100% agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidSauls (Post 3447916)
The only people who I see would benefit would be the people who are already playing Pro and winning, as they'd have more money in the purse from the additional players who aren't winning anything.

I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but here in the DFW area we have plenty of ams that could compete with the local pros. A local pro I was chatting with the other day suggested if higher rated ams didn't win so much merch they would probably move up, hence my op. Would you rather win 3rd-5th place as a pro, or 1st-3rd as an am? I guess to some it depends on how much money or merch you might win. I am all on board for trophy only events. Those are pretty much non existent around here.

DavidSauls 05-04-2019 06:37 PM

That just sounds like a local pro wanting to take their money.

It doesn't answer the question: Who else would benefit, by having more pros and fewer advanced players?

It strikes me as a solution without a problem.

discgolfer25 05-04-2019 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscFifty (Post 3447979)
I 100% agree.



I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods, but here in the DFW area we have plenty of ams that could compete with the local pros. A local pro I was chatting with the other day suggested if higher rated ams didn't win so much merch they would probably move up, hence my op. Would you rather win 3rd-5th place as a pro, or 1st-3rd as an am? I guess to some it depends on how much money or merch you might win. I am all on board for trophy only events. Those are pretty much non existent around here.

I think the vast majority of AMs move up too early. My personal opinion is just because you can compete at the “local pro” level doesn’t mean you should move up to pro. Most “local pros” would be better off playing advanced than moving up. I could see DFW being different bc of how large it is, but in the disc golf communities I have been in, people start hearing “bagger” and get pressured into moving up if they win one advanced tournament and are rated in the 930s. That person proceeds to move up when in reality, they are a middle of the pack AM nationally.

Karl 05-04-2019 10:41 PM

Even though one could argue that using the term "pro" may be a true misnomer, why does anyone (except really good "pros" who would monetarily benefit from such) wish to 'grow' the "pro" pool? I'm not really sure of the numbers but maybe about 15% of the tournament / organized players now are "pros"...? Can't think of too many other sports where the number is that high....
But in reality there are just several handfuls of REAL pros in the world of dg - the rest are just weekend gamblers.

Improbably 05-04-2019 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscFifty (Post 3447900)
Would there be more players turning pro (or at least sooner?) if ams didn't get pay outs such as merch, player packs, etc? :popcorn:

Inferring from the phrasing of your question, you consider more players turning pro a good thing. Is that correct?

CaptainAnhyzer 05-06-2019 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmonty (Post 3447942)
I personally am playing fewer tournaments already now because the entry fees have gone up so much to pad the pro purse.

NEVER, in my ten years as a TD would i EVER have thought that padding the pro purse with Am entry fees was a good idea. :thmbdown:

I personally think that the PDGA should specifically ban this practice.

VictorB 05-06-2019 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainAnhyzer (Post 3448342)
NEVER, in my ten years as a TD would i EVER have thought that padding the pro purse with Am entry fees was a good idea. :thmbdown:

I personally think that the PDGA should specifically ban this practice.

I'm getting the feeling that a lot people that play tournaments don't really understand how the payouts work, even a little bit. Not you specifically, just quoted to emphasize what an actual TD would say about this "problem"

GMcAtee 05-06-2019 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffmonty (Post 3447942)
I personally am playing fewer tournaments already now because the entry fees have gone up so much to pad the pro purse. I don't care about paying pros, and I don't need more towels/minis/koozies in a player's pack, so the value isn't in it for me anymore. Why pay $70 to play with a bunch of guys I already pay nothing to play all the time with?

I'm alot more selective now.

This exactly. I'm playing less due to the rising entry fees.

Cgkdisc 05-06-2019 12:13 PM

Sounds like some think it's the other way around, i.e., that the way Pro payouts are generated is stifling Amateur growth?:popcorn:

JC17393 05-06-2019 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainAnhyzer (Post 3448342)
NEVER, in my ten years as a TD would i EVER have thought that padding the pro purse with Am entry fees was a good idea. :thmbdown:

I personally think that the PDGA should specifically ban this practice.

Let's be clear here instead of continuing to perpetuate the falsehood that TDs are routinely taking from the ams to give to the pros. Using the retail profit on am prizes and player pack items as added cash in the pro division is not padding the pro purse with am entry fees. It's padding the pro purse with club/vendor/TD profits. There is ZERO reason for the PDGA to ban this practice.

I'm all for the discussion of reducing amateur entry fees and reducing the swag/prize arms race that has been building and building for decades now, but can we do it in good faith without mis-characterizing how things work for most tournaments?

biscoe 05-06-2019 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC17393 (Post 3448428)
Let's be clear here instead of continuing to perpetuate the falsehood that TDs are routinely taking from the ams to give to the pros. Using the retail profit on am prizes and player pack items as added cash in the pro division is not padding the pro purse with am entry fees. It's padding the pro purse with club/vendor/TD profits. There is ZERO reason for the PDGA to ban this practice.

I'm all for the discussion of reducing amateur entry fees and reducing the swag/prize arms race that has been building and building for decades now, but can we do it in good faith without mis-characterizing how things work for most tournaments?

Amen.

biscoe 05-06-2019 01:05 PM

The fact that players don't turn pro as rapidly now as they once did is a good thing for all involved other than the 980 local pro guys. it is merely a correction to the ass backwards way the "sport" began when there were pros but no ams. I believe pro divisions other than at the big events are going to continue to decline for a while. The ams who have a chance to accomplish anything in the pro divisions continue to move up in this area- the ones who are already peaking and don't have much chance of pro success no longer are- nothing wrong with that.

riltim 05-06-2019 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC17393 (Post 3448428)
Let's be clear here instead of continuing to perpetuate the falsehood that TDs are routinely taking from the ams to give to the pros. Using the retail profit on am prizes and player pack items as added cash in the pro division is not padding the pro purse with am entry fees. It's padding the pro purse with club/vendor/TD profits. There is ZERO reason for the PDGA to ban this practice.

I'm all for the discussion of reducing amateur entry fees and reducing the swag/prize arms race that has been building and building for decades now, but can we do it in good faith without mis-characterizing how things work for most tournaments?

From a consumer perspective if the TD is charging me $40 and giving $10 to the Open payout he could have just charged me $30 and added nothing. I don't gain anything from my extra $10 going to the open field.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448442)
From a consumer perspective if the TD is charging me $40 and giving $10 to the Open payout he could have just charged me $30 and added nothing. I don't gain anything from my extra $10 going to the open field.

Do you think the TD should make a profit off of the wholesale to retail mark up? I do.

What the TD chooses to do with it is their prerogative.

biscoe 05-06-2019 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448442)
From a consumer perspective if the TD is charging me $40 and giving $10 to the Open payout he could have just charged me $30 and added nothing. I don't gain anything from my extra $10 going to the open field.

When you go to McDonald's do you dissect the price point on the cheeseburger by ingredient or do you simply decide if the whole thing is worth the money?

IMO the question amateur players need to ask themselves is whether the entirety of the playing experience plus the trinkets is worth the money they are paying- not what the TD does with some part of the money. If playing in an organized event on courses prepared for it holds no value for players then this game is truly f*cked in the long run. Entry fees are pretty reasonable in my area based on what i read on here so I don't really hear a lot of the sentiment that the Ams feel ripped off.

riltim 05-06-2019 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448449)
Do you think the TD should make a profit off of the wholesale to retail mark up? I do.

What the TD chooses to do with it is their prerogative.

It's also my prerogative to not pay an extra $10 knowing it will go to the pros.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448454)
It's also my prerogative to not pay an extra $10 knowing it will go to the pros.

You can choose to not play the tournament. You can’t choose to pay less than the entry fee.

Again: Should the TD be allowed to make a profit?

CaptainAnhyzer 05-06-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC17393 (Post 3448428)
Using the retail profit on am prizes and player pack items as added cash in the pro division is not padding the pro purse with am entry fees. It's padding the pro purse with club/vendor/TD profits. There is ZERO reason for the PDGA to ban this practice.

Agreed. I should've been more specific with my description.

riltim 05-06-2019 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3448453)
When you go to McDonald's do you dissect the price point on the cheeseburger by ingredient or do you simply decide if the whole thing is worth the money?

IMO the question amateur players need to ask themselves is whether the entirety of the playing experience plus the trinkets is worth the money they are paying- not what the TD does with some part of the money. If playing in an organized event on courses prepared for it holds no value for players then this game is truly f*cked in the long run. Entry fees are pretty reasonable in my area based on what i read on here so I don't really hear a lot of the sentiment that the Ams feel ripped off.

Would you go to McDonald's if you knew they were charging you extra for a #1 so they could give a select group of others who bought a #1 a free Big Mac?

Ams and pros both get a similar experience if it's the same layout at the same course.

CaptainAnhyzer 05-06-2019 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448459)
Again: Should the TD be allowed to make a profit?

As long as he/she is transparent about it.

biscoe 05-06-2019 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448464)
Would you go to McDonald's if you knew they were charging you extra for a #1 so they could give a select group of others who bought a #1 a free Big Mac?

Ams and pros both get a similar experience if it's the same layout at the same course.

My only concern is "do i get my money's worth from the $1.49 (or whatever) this cheeseburger costs me?"

Are you citing TD's using the difference between retail and wholesale price points as added cash for pro purses as some of "your" money going to the pros? If so my position is that that money is the organizers to do with as they see fit at that point whether that be to add it to the pro purse, pocket it, or buy everybody a yummy cheeseburger.

JC17393 05-06-2019 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448442)
From a consumer perspective if the TD is charging me $40 and giving $10 to the Open payout he could have just charged me $30 and added nothing. I don't gain anything from my extra $10 going to the open field.

No, from a consumer perspective, you're giving the TD $40 and he's giving you $40 worth of merchandise and services (player pack, prizes, trophies, a tournament experience). End of transaction.

Did you get a player pack? Were there prizes paid out? Did the value of those things add up to the total entry fees paid to your division? If the answer to each of those questions is yes, then what the TD does with the money he receives from you is none of your concern.

Would you feel better or worse about it if instead of adding "your" $10 to the pro purse, he used it to take his family out to a nice dinner after the tournament?

riltim 05-06-2019 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448459)
Again: Should the TD be allowed to make a profit?

Profit is what you bring home at the end of the day, not what you shuffle around. If the TD were including the tournament profits as income on their taxes would they declare the added cash to open as profit?

Karl 05-06-2019 01:58 PM

I'm okay with the way monies are presently "distributed" AS LONG AS EVERY PLAYER ("pro" and am alike) EQUALLY share in the 'expenses' incurred to put on an event. These include, but are limited to: sanctioning fees, port-o-potties, insurances, etc, etc, etc.

riltim 05-06-2019 02:03 PM

I understand the "you are paying for an experience" comment and I agree with it.

My issue is what difference in experience is an Am getting from a Open player that justifies a portion of their payment being shifted to another division?

Three Putt 05-06-2019 02:10 PM

This is an argument as old as amateur disc golf (which is about 10 years younger than "pro" disc golf for those of you who don't know how we got here.) After Kransco pulled the Wham-O brand out of Frisbee spots and the IFA disappeared, there was no more corporate money. We had this painfully small pool of money, most of which was generated by what we paid in. We then took this painfully small pool of money and complained endlessly about how it was distributed. The Pros should get more. No, the Am's should get more. The TD should be paid. No, the TD is a volunteer and all the money should be in the payout.

The wholesale/retail differential money for the Amateur prize pool got to be a big controversy at some point. Some people thought if you bought a disc wholesale for $5, it should count $5 against the Amateur prize pool. Others argued that the value of that disc was the $8 and it was up to the TD what happened to the other $3. I've long given Bruce Brakel credit for naming the latter practice the "AM Scam" and loudly denouncing the practice.

Here was my issue with Bruce Brakel math: the value of the event was based on a penny for penny accounting of every division getting every penny they paid in back in the payout. In that math, the value of the experience is $0. The value of playing in a well organized disc golf event on a well-maintained course should not be $0 IMO. But, it is when you follow all the pennies and demand that all the money in has to be in the payout.

My background is recreation programming, and when I got involved in disc golf I was shocked at how disc golf finances were structured. Way way way way WAY too much of the money was going into payouts. So much money was expected to go into the payout that there was no way to run an event and actually cover costs. The whole system was based on loading a huge burden of organization and course preparation on the backs of volunteers. You don't see that in other events. In Softball you would pay $350/team and nobody would expect that the payout for a 10-team league would equal $3,500. You maintain fields and pay for lights and pay for umpires, plus (gasp!) you have to make some money to stay in business. So the actual end of season payout to the teams was more like $300. Nobody complained about that, you had to pay a certain amount for us to provide the experience and you were paying for the experience.

IMO that's a big problem with disc golf. If you don't value the experience enough to pay for it, then we are on a road to nowhere.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448484)
Profit is what you bring home at the end of the day, not what you shuffle around. If the TD were including the tournament profits as income on their taxes would they declare the added cash to open as profit?

Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

Three Putt 05-06-2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448494)
Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

I think the question is "You won $40 worth of merchandise. The retail value of the merchandise is $40, but the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

What actually happens to the $10 should be irrelevant. Either you feel like you got ripped off or you don't.

JRW III 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

The difference between the wholesale and retail basically funds the expenses tournaments. If you take that out, how would you replace it? Would take outside money (sponsors, fundraisers, etc) to maintain the 100% (ish) payouts if the AMs went to cash as well as the pros.

Cgkdisc 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.Luke (Post 3448494)
Since we’ve descended to quibbling over verbiage I’ll try and rephrase my question.

Should the TD be allowed to use the difference in wholesale to retail pricing as they see fit or is the TD supposed to run tournaments out of generosity with zero gain or at a potential loss?

Is a banquet hall owner allowed to host a dinner party and use the difference in wholesale to retail food pricing as they see fit or is a home owner allowed to host a dinner party from their own generosity with zero gain (pot luck/BYOB) or at a loss?

riltim 05-06-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3448496)
the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

More like the TD paid $10-15. I have been part of organizing multiple charity c-tiers and a TD can get a Premium plastic disc for $6.50 and custom t-shirts for $2-3.

F.Luke 05-06-2019 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3448496)
I think the question is "You won $40 worth of merchandise. The retail value of the merchandise is $40, but the tournament organizer only paid $30 for it. Do you feel like you got ripped off?"

What actually happens to the $10 should be irrelevant. Either you feel like you got ripped off or you don't.

It seems that many ams feel the wholesale to retail difference is a “ripoff.”

There is a TD in my area who runs events (typically unsanctioned) who’s payouts I disagree with. I don’t play his events. I don’t tell him he’s wrong.

JC17393 05-06-2019 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riltim (Post 3448491)
I understand the "you are paying for an experience" comment and I agree with it.

My issue is what difference in experience is an Am getting from a Open player that justifies a portion of their payment being shifted to another division?

If that portion were being shifted with no compensation to the am player, you'd have a point. But if the amateur player is paying $40 and getting $40 worth of product (or, say $20 worth and the opportunity, with good play, to win more than $20 worth of additional product), how is that player's experience diminished?

I guess what I'm bumping on in this discussion is why anyone else can add money to the purse via sponsorship, perhaps through selling a product to raise funds, but when the TD/club does it, it's somehow robbing Peter to pay Paul and wrong. If the club were selling CryZtal Buzzzes as a fundraiser for the tournament, would you insist on only paying $15 instead of $25 for that Buzzz because you want the disc but not to put any of "your" money into the pro purse? How is that different than paying a $25 entry and getting $25 worth of merchandise and swag, let alone the "experience"?


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