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DG_player 02-06-2021 04:30 PM

Just to continue my vaccine rollout rant:


The most interesting thing is that after hospital management try to justify vaccinating non-clinical personal, they defend being slow to vaccinate non-affiliated clinical staff by stating they have virtually eliminated transmission in clinical settings by the use of safety protocols and PPE and are doing it to protect their staff from community spread. So if clinical staff have virtually no work infection risk, exactly why is it so critical we innoculate them before everyone else?

To further rant on a different topic of the rollout, wisely our state has decided to expand the first phase to include 65+. However there is absolutely nothing in place to facilitate the rollout. There's news stories every night about old people trying to figure out how to get a vaccine. There's no phone number, no website, no nothing. Our state health director came on admonishing people for getting vaccines out of turn and complaining that minority groups are being under vaccinated. Excuse me, but where is the phone number or website for these people to enroll at? Why don't we have a state run lottery system to make the distribution fair and equitable? Did our health secretary seriously not know that a vaccine was in the works and they would have to figure out how to distribute it? The best resource we have isn't even a government website, it's a website some college student put together on his free time that scans the web for information on contact info for local pharmacies, etc. that have vaccines. Meanwhile, after this disaster she left, she's been promoted to serve on Biden's cabinet.:doh:

Halcón 02-06-2021 04:37 PM


Originally Posted by medic5888 (Post 3688271)
Ok basic math and facts. The 1% that dont survive thats 3 million people. Im not ok with that. Facts 70% of people who recover are being readmitted with pulmonary embolisms and dvts. Facts ots scares your lungs worse than smoking.

Not sure what you're talking about here, but the rate of hospital readmission is nowhere near 70%.


According to this, it's 9% readmission to the same hospital within two months of discharge. And this is from a study from March-July. I would bet that the readmission rates are even lower now, since a good portion of those patients came from when we knew much less about how to treat Covid, and how to keep people out of the hospital once they were discharged.

teemkey 02-06-2021 04:39 PM

I thought I's write a quick note on percentages, focusing on denominators. Although a quotient of 1% might indicate a rare event, there's a positive correlation between the quotient and the denominator: for example 1% of 100 = 1 while 1% of 100000 = 1000, an increase of 1000% (I'll leave proof of that math to you).

Jay Dub 02-06-2021 04:44 PM


Originally Posted by Halcón (Post 3688377)
Nothing to see here.

Just stop

Halcón 02-06-2021 04:44 PM



Additionally, they determined that within 60 days of discharge, 19.9% of patients who survived to hospital discharge were readmitted and 9.1% died.

Among patients initially hospitalized for COVID-19 and were readmitted, 30.2% had COVID-19, 8.5% had sepsis, 3.1% had pneumonia and 3.1% had heart failure.

To give one more look, this is another study that does indeed show a higher readmission rate than the one in the previous post. But it is also nowhere near 70%. And the diagnoses at readmission were not PE's or DVT's, but mostly Covid, sepsis and pneumonia.

Jay Dub 02-06-2021 04:52 PM

^^Fake poster, ignore it

ReinZ_96 02-06-2021 04:58 PM


Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3688354)
To be clear I'm not talking about unused doses, I'm talking about the underlying priority system. If a dose is going to waste it should clearly go into anyone nearby with an arm.

It is pretty black and white, 80% of deaths have been in people 65 and older. I certainly wouldn't criticize the UK, they are vaccinating in the most life saving way possible, frontline healthcare workers followed by tiers based solely on risk of death (primarily age based). "Essential workers" don't even come into play until they've vaccinated everyone 50 and older. We don't even have conclusive information that vaccines prevent asymptomatic infection and spread, so any idea we need to vaccinate younger people to prevent spread is bunk right now. Compare that to the US where states are actually considering vaccinating teachers and postman before 65+. It's lunacy. My pharmacist who sits behind the counter and fills my prescription is vaccinated but the dude checking me out isn't and the seniors waiting in line aren't. Please explain the reasoning on how this saves more lives.

Overall I'm just completely frustrated and furious over the whole thing. I've struggled to find my 75 year old dad with multiple co-morbidities a shot, when meanwhile I read how IT workers, admin staff, and work at home employees are already vaccinated at the major health system in my area.

I understand your frustration for sure. I definitely agree that people who are lower risk shouldn't be prioritized over high risk individuals, or those who work with them. I didn't realize you were only talking about that specifically in your first post. The rollout in the US is essentially a disaster, just like the rest of the pandemic response. I hope you can find a vaccine for your father soon.

But there is some promising data that the vaccines do prevent asymptomatic spread, though at a lower rate that the reported efficacy rates. It hasn't been directly studied yet, to my knowledge, but the standard trials for the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine have shown that it could be ~59% effective at preventing asymptomatic spread, vs that vaccines 70% overall efficacy rate. Going out on a limb and doing some conjecture, but I'd think there is an ability for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine to prevent asymptomatic spread as well. Like you said, it's not conclusive, and it's only data on one of the vaccines/there needs to more research, but it's still promising.

ru4por 02-06-2021 07:54 PM


Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3688374)
The most interesting thing is that after hospital management try to justify vaccinating non-clinical personal, they defend being slow to vaccinate non-affiliated clinical staff by stating they have virtually eliminated transmission in clinical settings by the use of safety protocols and PPE and are doing it to protect their staff from community spread. So if clinical staff have virtually no work infection risk, exactly why is it so critical we innoculate them before everyone else?

I think the rant is justified. I also agree that the entire vaccination process should have been reconciled nationally and rolled out under the federal government or state government direction.

I can only really speak for my healthcare system and the State of Michigan. In my opinion, healthcare systems should not be in the vaccination business....at all. They don't have the facilities, parking, staff or money. Anyone can give an intramuscular injection with a couple hours of formalized training. Hospital resources, in nearly all areas, have been strained for nearly a year. Clinicians are facing burnout and exhaustion across the country. Now, the expectation is that those same resources sign up for extra shifts, to work the vaccine clinics, associated with their system. My system has now flexed to give 50,000 vaccines a week. Facilities, likely needed for patients in case of surge, are maintained by hospital staff. Managed, supervised, clinically staffed by hospital staff. Our system has not hired anyone. I have no idea how this works in areas where they are still spiking. I cannot understand any justification, for putting vaccines on the plate of the very system, that all measures and lockdowns, were trying to protect.

My system immediately began vaccinating front line healthcare workers, the turnout was abysmal. After about a month of rigorous injections giving, the demand had dwindled. We were getting vaccines and sitting on them. The system made a decision to start vaccinating anyone in the system. The state had not allowed them to move to a new group, including 65+, in fact the state did not do so for another two weeks. The system was transparent and public in their decision to get shot in arms and system staff were the easiest to notify, get into clinics and document against. This also started immunizing the potential staff of the clinics.

I agree this was not the right thing to do, but I agreed with the decision, in lieu of regulations to facilitate an increased rollout.

medic5888 02-06-2021 08:50 PM


Originally Posted by DavidSauls (Post 3688300)
Thanks. For his suffering and our worry, he's punched his immunity card....or, at least, his partial-immunity card. Plus, he's on the Covid Diet (food has no taste, for which I'm almost jealous, as I could get some health benefits out of that symptom). The true celebration comes when he's able to do his share of course work.

The offer for you to come visit a world without sirens is still open, and will be if the weather ever turns decent.

Will def come visit soon!! been wanting to come play just, havent had a chance with work! Stoney is my fav course.

pearlybakerbest 02-06-2021 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by Monocacy (Post 3688349)
But researchers have been studying mRNA vaccines for decades.

These vaccine types have been around for decades, yes. However, inoculation in humans has never been implemented at such a macro level. I can't fault anyone for being wary of new medical technology. I personally would prefer to get the conventional type Oxford vaccine, simply because it uses biotech based on hundreds of years of widespread use in humans instead of months.

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