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jakebake91 02-16-2021 10:13 AM

I wish they would have let teachers go earlier. In WI, they start eligibility March 1st I believe. By the time they get them all in for both doses, the school year will practically be over.

autocrosscrx 02-16-2021 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690894)
I wish they would have let teachers go earlier. In WI, they start eligibility March 1st I believe. By the time they get them all in for both doses, the school year will practically be over.

My frustration is the opposite. TN put out a priority and it had health care and high risk, then infrastructure workers, then teachers. And teachers complained and they got bumped up above the 65+ year olds and the infrastructure workers, both of whom are dying in numbers.

My 75+ year old blind uncle with diabetes and COPD hasn't been able to sniff his first shot. His caregiver hasn't been able to get her first shot. My 70+ year old dad or my 65+ year old mom who haven't left home in a year haven't been able to sniff first shots. And now we are giving shots to 24 year old kindergarten teachers.

ru4por 02-16-2021 11:06 AM

I think you guys both have legit points. I also think this points out the quandary of whom should be given priority. The strength of teachers' unions create a problem as well. Many believe we have to get our kids back in school. Protecting young healthy teachers is only half the problem. Those teachers often have elderly parents and children back at home that are put at risk by them getting exposed to that dose of the virus 3-5 days a week. Freeing many parents from the new job of educating and raising their kids, opens up the economy. Of course, it might be argued that this was really their responsibility all along, but that might be better for a different discussion.

Is it more important to protect the old and sick? Probably, but I would have to research if they are even the largest infected group any longer. Are they dying more than any other group any longer? I am pretty sure they are not the largest spreaders.

I am not sure there is a right answer and I am sure I don't want to make the call. BUT....the nation should have a single decision making policy. One that all the money and resources are put toward achieving in the quickest possible manner.

autocrosscrx 02-16-2021 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3690900)
Those teachers often have elderly parents and children back at home that are put at risk by them getting exposed to that dose of the virus 3-5 days a week.

We should try to get those people vaccines.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 11:34 AM

It does baffle me why individual states got to make up their own rules with this rollout. I think that also is leading to a lot of people uncertain if they qualify or not for vaccination. I live within 1 hour of the border of MN. A lot of us get news channels from the twin cities. Minnesota's rollout was different than Wisconsins. Some people here thought they could get it when they can't, and some haven't tried because they think they cant. It's been a cluster, and I'm sure this isn't the only place it's happening.

Also, why is one group more at risk an hour away than here? Makes no sense. It should have been a federally coordinated event.

I just don't know.

I also absolutely see autocrosses point about things. All depends on your perspective on things I suppose.

All I know, I'm very glad I'm not calling the shots (no pun intended....well maybe a little) on this.

DG_player 02-16-2021 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690869)
I think what sticks out to me the most thru a lot of this, and what irritates me the most, is just what things and sources people are willing to believe.

Lots of people have zero issues believing a dark web, basement dwelling, tin foil hat wearing, conspiracy theorist with absolutely NO credentials who randomly popped up on your social media feed. They DONT believe the CDC, the WHO, local health experts and scientists that make a living studying infectious diseases? What's wrong with that picture?


The vast spread and consumption of misinformation is simply insane. It's always been a thing, but this past year it's gotten out of control.

I think it's worth pointing out that a tin-foil hat wearing basement dweller warned me this was going to happen in early february 2020. He was also probably one of the first people in the country to wear a mask, and was quick to tell me not to believe the CDC bull**** about not wearing masks.

Are we even talking about the same organizations? Is the WHO you're talking about the one who didn't even label it a pandemic until March, and refuted asymptomatic spread until late summer? Is the CDC the you're talking about the one that told us everything was fine until it exploded, and then proceeded to tell us masks would make us sick?

And we're somehow shocked that some people don't trust these organizations or our news media who just parrots whatever gets the most clicks without doing any real journalism? It's a damn shame it's come to this. This whole situation would be a lot better if there had been honesty from the get go. People might not be so fatigued and likely to disregard everything, if they had been able to to do many of the things that can be done safely from early on. Just look here, we have people admonishing people for playing an outdoor non contact sport without masks. How dare they!

Everyone should be somewhat skeptical. I have friends who's kids have spent the past year locked in their house, because our media and government do such a poor job of communicating the real risks and convinced their children can't go to kindergarten or play outside at a playground. I'm not saying you should believe everything you hear on the internet, but if you think the CDC and WHO and media have your personal well being at the top of their agenda you need to apply some critical thinking.

autocrosscrx 02-16-2021 12:07 PM

...and I'm definitely biased because I had a shot lined up in December and the plug got pulled on that and now I'm probably looking at 2023. And all my at risk family have gotten pushed back at least 3 or 4 months.

So if anyone talks to me about letting their kids skip school, I might slap them. We're putting people's lives at risk for your kids to go to school.

Jay Dub 02-16-2021 12:08 PM

Some tin foil hat wearer being accidentally right once means nothing to me.

What's the cliche? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut at times.

DG_player 02-16-2021 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3690900)
I am not sure there is a right answer and I am sure I don't want to make the call. BUT....the nation should have a single decision making policy. One that all the money and resources are put toward achieving in the quickest possible manner.

There absolutely is a right answer.

65-75 year old are 90 times more likely to die from covid
75-85 are 220 times more likely to die
85+ are 630 times more likely to die

The entire rest of the world who does important stuff like packaging our food, etc. have to go to work. There's absolutely no reason why a bunch of whiny teachers should get moved ahead of these people, especially when pretty much every public health organization said that schools can be safely operated and most school districts have provided waivers to high-risk staff or staff caring for high-risk family members.

DG_player 02-16-2021 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Dub (Post 3690914)
Some tin foil hat wearer being accidentally right once means nothing to me.

What's the cliche? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut at times.

What's your non-conspiracy explanation?

They were aware of the potential danger of Covid in late January. There were people in the government advocating for universal masking in February, and somehow we were told, "Oh don't worry" and when that didn't work "Oh, masks make you sick".

The only alternate explanation that makes any sense is that they're all pretty much incompetent. Either way, you should be doing some of your own fact finding to confirm what they're saying rather than blindly listening to them.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:23 PM

Can someone link me to the article from the CDC that said masks make us sick?

I missed that one last year. Not saying it hadn't been said, I just don't remember it.

Jay Dub 02-16-2021 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3690918)
What's your non-conspiracy explanation?

They were aware of the potential danger of Covid in late January. There were people in the government advocating for universal masking in February, and somehow we were told, "Oh don't worry" and when that didn't work "Oh, masks make you sick".

The only alternate explanation that makes any sense is that they're all pretty much incompetent. Either way, you should be doing some of your own fact finding to confirm what they're saying rather than blindly listening to them.

This is what's always said by certain people.

But they are never able to tell us WHERE ELSE to look for the info THEY CLAIM is out there.

autocrosscrx 02-16-2021 12:30 PM

I'm all for educated research, but aren't we really at the mercy of what we are told?

I mean, you either hear something and roll with it or you hear both sides and pick one side.

It isn't like I can go out and perform a scientific study.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Dub (Post 3690921)
This is what's always said by certain people.

But they are never able to tell us WHERE ELSE to look for the info THEY CLAIM is out there.

They forget not all of us are lucky enough to have Nostradamus on speed dial......

jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3690923)

It isn't like I can go out and perform a scientific study.

I mean. We can probably try. The findings aren't really gonna mean $hit tho.

Jay Dub 02-16-2021 12:34 PM

I'm just going to free think this from now on... :rolleyes:

JuanA 02-16-2021 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690920)
Can someone link me to the article from the CDC that said masks make us sick?

I missed that one last year. Not saying it hadn't been said, I just don't remember it.

I'd like to see this as well. I hadn't heard about it until today, but searches online bring up more conspiracy theory than fact.

CDC did not say wearing a cloth face mask traps carbon dioxide and ‘risks your health’

Quote:

CLAIM: Photo shows a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report with many claims about face masks, including that cloth masks trap exhaled carbon dioxide and collect mildew within 30 minutes, risking your health.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. The document in the photo is fake and falsely attributed to the CDC, the agency told The Associated Press. The CDC recommends the use of cloth face coverings in public settings to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuanA (Post 3690927)
I'd like to see this as well. I hadn't heard about it until today, but searches online bring up more conspiracy theory than fact.

CDC did not say wearing a cloth face mask traps carbon dioxide and ‘risks your health’

Exactly the point I was making too. I want the definitive statement straight from the CDC saying masks are bad. I can't find it either.

Jay Dub 02-16-2021 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3690918)
What's your non-conspiracy explanation?

They were aware of the potential danger of Covid in late January. There were people in the government advocating for universal masking in February, and somehow we were told, "Oh don't worry" and when that didn't work "Oh, masks make you sick".

The only alternate explanation that makes any sense is that they're all pretty much incompetent. Either way, you should be doing some of your own fact finding to confirm what they're saying rather than blindly listening to them.

Like below, show us what you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuanA (Post 3690927)
I'd like to see this as well. I hadn't heard about it until today, but searches online bring up more conspiracy theory than fact.

CDC did not say wearing a cloth face mask traps carbon dioxide and ‘risks your health’


jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Dub (Post 3690931)
Like below, show us what you have.

I'm waiting for the classic "go look it up yourself".....

Jay Dub 02-16-2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690933)
I'm waiting for the classic "go look it up yourself".....

"Do your own research"!

chevis 02-16-2021 12:55 PM

the thing about organizations that have science as their backing is they are able to change what they are saying based on facts(studies) as they come available. this means they may tell you one thing, but as they get more info they may change what they are saying. this doesn't make them incompetent, it more likely points to lack of funding & then let's go over to the politics thread to argue why that is.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevis (Post 3690936)
the thing about organizations that have science as their backing is they are able to change what they are saying based on facts(studies) as they come available. this means they may tell you one thing, but as they get more info they may change what they are saying. this doesn't make them incompetent, it more likely points to lack of funding & then let's go over to the politics thread to argue why that is.

Without making it political, I also believe that early on in this, China wasn't exactly being forthcoming with all of their data either. So, policies and recommendations are made based on available information. To your point, things are bound to evolve as more information is learned.

ru4por 02-16-2021 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3690915)
There absolutely is a right answer.

65-75 year old are 90 times more likely to die from covid
75-85 are 220 times more likely to die
85+ are 630 times more likely to die

The entire rest of the world who does important stuff like packaging our food, etc. have to go to work. There's absolutely no reason why a bunch of whiny teachers should get moved ahead of these people, especially when pretty much every public health organization said that schools can be safely operated and most school districts have provided waivers to high-risk staff or staff caring for high-risk family members.

I have a tenancy to not see things in absolutes. Here are some interesting Michigan stats.

Source: https://sph.umich.edu/mi-cress/

• More Black than White respondents reported severe or very severe symptoms (72.9% vs. 60.5%) or required an overnight hospital stay (45.4% vs. 27.9%)
• Black respondents reported poorer experiences than White respondents when attempting to access COVID-19 care
• More Black respondents reported increased social stressors, with 25.6% being unable to pay bills (vs. 10.3% of White respondents)

So, in the world of absolutes...do we slot at risk black people in front of at risk white people?

The question is rhetorical and a better topic for the political subforums. But, I use it to point out the lack of absolutes, IMO.

DG_player 02-16-2021 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690933)
I'm waiting for the classic "go look it up yourself".....

Circa late March 2020

Here's the man himself:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/ou...ut-of-context/

Here's an article on the WHO position:

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-n...6e5ba93936f2f4

dysmike 02-16-2021 03:04 PM

“I'd rather be a hypocrite than the same person forever.”—Adam “Ad-Rock” Horovitz.

jakebake91 02-16-2021 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3690972)
Circa late March 2020

Here's the man himself:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/ou...ut-of-context/

I see an article (not the CDC statement) where Fauci is telling people not to hoard masks that the healthcare workers needed ... .I don't see him saying that they are dangerous or a bad idea. That they may have unintended consequences, sure.

If that's all ya got there bud....... you realize that page was debunking your theory? It says so right on top.

DG_player 02-16-2021 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690975)
I see an article (not the CDC statement) where Fauci is telling people not to hoard masks that the healthcare workers needed ... .I don't see him saying that they are dangerous or a bad idea. That they may have unintended consequences, sure.

If that's all ya got there bud....... you realize that page was debunking your theory? It says so right on top.

You should work on your reading comprehension. It's debunking that this is current guidance (which I never said it was) and that this was a recent statement by Fauci, not that he ever actually said it or that it was his position in the past.

I'm not sure what alternate world you were living in last spring where we were being told to wear masks.

DG_player 02-16-2021 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3690944)
I have a tenancy to not see things in absolutes. Here are some interesting Michigan stats.

Source: https://sph.umich.edu/mi-cress/

• More Black than White respondents reported severe or very severe symptoms (72.9% vs. 60.5%) or required an overnight hospital stay (45.4% vs. 27.9%)
• Black respondents reported poorer experiences than White respondents when attempting to access COVID-19 care
• More Black respondents reported increased social stressors, with 25.6% being unable to pay bills (vs. 10.3% of White respondents)

So, in the world of absolutes...do we slot at risk black people in front of at risk white people?

The question is rhetorical and a better topic for the political subforums. But, I use it to point out the lack of absolutes, IMO.

I'm not getting into this, like you said better for political subforums. However I think I've made it pretty clear that I strongly feel that those at the greatest risk of dying should be the ones getting vaccinated.

R-Ogre 02-16-2021 04:48 PM

*shrug* as chaotic and, on an individual level, frustrating as the vax rollout has been, from a pure numbers game we are getting a lot of shots in arms per capita, compared with a lot of the world. Not to say we shouldn’t be debating back and forth about how it can be improved, but it could be a lot worse.

DG_player 02-16-2021 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3690975)
I see an article (not the CDC statement) where Fauci is telling people not to hoard masks that the healthcare workers needed ... .I don't see him saying that they are dangerous or a bad idea. That they may have unintended consequences, sure.

If that's all ya got there bud....... you realize that page was debunking your theory? It says so right on top.

"You can increase your risk of getting it by wearing a mask if you are not a healthcare provider" - Surgeon General Jerome Adams

"There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit. In fact, there's some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly" - Dr. Mike Ryan, executive director WHO health emergencies program

"You and me wearing these masks, what Dr. Fauci and Dr. Shuchat has said is that could actually be more harmful to you than not wearing a mask because if it's not fitted right you're gonna fumble with it, you're gonna be touching your face which is the number one way you're gonna get disease" - Alex Azar, US Secretary HHS

Although I did stumble on this nugget:

Quote:

In response to emails requesting comment from Fauci, Elizabeth Deatrick, a spokeswoman for the National Institutes of Health, referred questions to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

“At this moment, there are no updates or anticipated changes to the guidance,” said Arleen Purcell, a spokeswoman for the CDC, who reiterated existing CDC guidelines that patients with symptoms should wear masks but that people who are well should not wear the masks to prevent contracting the virus. Unlike the verbal warnings from top health officials, the CDC’s written guidance does not suggest that wearing a mask could increase the risk of catching the virus.

Purcell did not address questions about the assertion that masks could increase users’ risk of catching the virus or whether the CDC was studying coronavirus responses in other parts of the world where face mask use had been more widespread.

So I guess you're right in that it's not part of their written recommendations although they frequently expressed it on the Sunday morning news programs.

dysmike 02-16-2021 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R-Ogre (Post 3691003)
*shrug* as chaotic and, on an individual level, frustrating as the vax rollout has been, from a pure numbers game we are getting a lot of shots in arms per capita, compared with a lot of the world. Not to say we shouldn’t be debating back and forth about how it can be improved, but it could be a lot worse.

Yep, what we're seeing is the typical result of decentralized decision making.

dysmike 02-16-2021 05:03 PM

I see we're still fixated on beta from early 2020, rather than what we know now.

Dcinmd 02-16-2021 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3691004)
So I guess you're right in that it's not part of their written recommendations although they frequently expressed it on the Sunday morning news programs.

I tend not to seek my medical advise from the Sunday morning political circuit.

DG_player 02-16-2021 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dcinmd (Post 3691010)
I tend not to seek my medical advise from the Sunday morning political circuit.

I guess you consider Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, Dr. Gottlieb, and pretty much every prominent current or past public health official to be bad people to get medical advice from.

Monocacy 02-16-2021 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3691013)
I guess you consider Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, Dr. Gottlieb, and pretty much every prominent current or past public health official to be bad people to get medical advice from.

Personally, I look at peer-reviewed scientific articles first, then pre-print articles, then data and published guidance from reputable sources such as the CDC. If an issue is important (or just interesting) I try to understand the data and not just the conclusions.

But I suspect you approach things similarly. :)

I always feel badly for people who have to talk for a living, because expressing things poorly from time to time is probably inevitable.

For what it is worth, in the early days of the pandemic I was quite surprised that masks turned out to provide such remarkably effective protection against Covid transmission. So I am inclined to cut a bit of slack to folks who made the same error of judgement that I did. :rolleyes:

DavidSauls 02-16-2021 06:09 PM

Research in the early days of a new-to-science matter was, in some details, wrong?

Yawn.

teemkey 02-16-2021 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3690994)
I'm not getting into this, like you said better for political subforums. However I think I've made it pretty clear that I strongly feel that those at the greatest risk of dying should be the ones getting vaccinated.

A case could be made to vaccinate those most likely to spread the virus first and get the R0 down below 1. I'd characterize this group as those doing work that requires contact with multiple people.

I would argue both the high-risk and high contact people be among the first eligible groups.

zontar 02-16-2021 06:33 PM

I'm with 30 kids all day every day. is that high contact? I'm ok with grocery workers being ahead of me, as we need food (we're not running out of kids yet).

in my area utility workers are ahead of teachers. not as enthusiastic about that call....

ru4por 02-16-2021 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teemkey (Post 3691037)
A case could be made to vaccinate those most likely to spread the virus first and get the R0 down below 1. I'd characterize this group as those doing work that requires contact with multiple people.

I would argue both the high-risk and high contact people be among the first eligible groups.

It could be argued that this strategy could save the most lives. This is a great example of why I am not a fan of sweeping absolutes.


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