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-   -   Are we not taking Covid-19 seriously (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136199)

teemkey 02-16-2021 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3691052)
It could be argued that this strategy could save the most lives. This is a great example of why I am not a fan of sweeping absolutes.

That's basically how the first phase of inoculations was applied: elders in conjugate settings (high risk) and health care workers (high contact).

DG_player 02-16-2021 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zontar (Post 3691042)
I'm with 30 kids all day every day. is that high contact? I'm ok with grocery workers being ahead of me, as we need food (we're not running out of kids yet).

in my area utility workers are ahead of teachers. not as enthusiastic about that call....

I'm guessing you are a teacher? Out of curiosity how have things gone where you teach as far as in school transmission etc.

DG_player 02-16-2021 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3691052)
It could be argued that this strategy could save the most lives. This is a great example of why I am not a fan of sweeping absolutes.

I guess the question comes down to is how much additional transmission do you have to prevent to save the same number of lives if you forgo vaccinating an older person who is at much greater risk of dying.

On the other hand I also question how much of that actually went into the essential worker lists. There's a couple in my state that fall into that category, public transport workers, grocery store workers, teachers, however there are a lot I really question (postal workers, sanitation workers, manufacturing workers, people in the energy industry?). It seems to me a lot of it came down to lobbying power. If you were truely basing it off of transmission risk after healthcare workers the logical next priority group would be something like bartenders, waiters, store clerks and public transport.

medic5888 02-16-2021 09:07 PM

I strongly feel that if we are to open schools back up we need to get these teachers vaccinated.

dysmike 02-16-2021 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medic5888 (Post 3691070)
I strongly feel that if we are to open schools back up we need to get these teachers vaccinated.

The teachers I know feel the same way. The people that think they're simply baby sitters are the only ones I know who do not.

BogeyNoMore 02-16-2021 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by medic5888 (Post 3691070)
I strongly feel that if we are to open schools back up we need to get these teachers vaccinated.

It's damned hard to argue against this.

Several of you have made valid cases for who should get priority. Supply and demand being what they are, any plan is going to piss some folks off.

I'm very fortunate (and quite thankful) that working from home has worked out pretty well for me for the past 11 months. The company I work for plans to keep that going at least through June. I'm fine waiting until people who actually have to "go to work" get theirs, before I get mine. I'm pretty able to limit my exposure with minimal hardship.

That said, I'm registered on my state's coronavirus vaccine website, and when they tell me it's my turn, I'll gladly present my off arm.

DG_player 02-16-2021 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore (Post 3691089)
It's damned hard to argue against this.

Several of you have made valid cases for who should get priority. Supply and demand being what they are, any plan is going to piss some folks off.

I'm very fortunate (and quite thankful) that working from home has worked out pretty well for me for the past 11 months. The company I work for plans to keep that going at least through June. I'm fine waiting until people who actually have to "go to work" get theirs, before I get mine. I'm pretty able to limit my exposure with minimal hardship.

That said, I'm registered on my state's coronavirus vaccine website, and when they tell me it's my turn, I'll gladly present my off arm.

I'm sort of in the same boat. I've made it this far, I have a pretty good handle on what's safe and what isn't, so I'm pretty sure I can make it until May or whenever I get mine.

The big thing that scares me though is my dad. I don't know if anyone else has had similar experiences, but old people just don't seem to get it. He is sufficiently afraid of the virus, and is pretty convinced he wouldn't do well if he got it, but his perception of risk is horrible. He's terrified of going to the store and being near strangers with masks, but is completely at ease with people he knows, because how could someone he knows possibly have it? He also has this misguided notion that if someone is only mildly sick, it can't be the coronavirus, because the coronavirus is really BAD, so whatever they have can't be the coronavirus. I can't seem to get it through his head that for most younger people it's nothing more than a cold and he should be wary.

Fortunately he managed to get his first dose so a major load of stress has been taken off my shoulders. Hopefully other people in similar situations can soon get the relief of having their older loved ones getting vaccinated.

ru4por 02-16-2021 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3691095)
The big thing that scares me though is my dad. I don't know if anyone else has had similar experiences, but old people just don't seem to get it. He is sufficiently afraid of the virus, and is pretty convinced he wouldn't do well if he got it, but his perception of risk is horrible. He's terrified of going to the store and being near strangers with masks, but is completely at ease with people he knows, because how could someone he knows possibly have it? He also has this misguided notion that if someone is only mildly sick, it can't be the coronavirus, because the coronavirus is really BAD, so whatever they have can't be the coronavirus. I can't seem to get it through his head that for most younger people it's nothing more than a cold and he should be wary.

This is sooo true. I have both a 90+ y/o father in law and an 80 y/o mother and this fits them to a tee. The FIL just doesn't seem to get it, my mom is just tired of it. She is smart enough to understand, but like you said....risk assessment is just messed up. She has her groceries delievered, but want to visit her friends. They are both currently on several lists, waiting their turn.

dysmike 02-16-2021 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3691105)
This is sooo true. I have both a 90+ y/o father in law and an 80 y/o mother and this fits them to a tee. The FIL just doesn't seem to get it, my mom is just tired of it. She is smart enough to understand, but like you said....risk assessment is just messed up. She has her groceries delievered, but want to visit her friends. They are both currently on several lists, waiting their turn.

Mine are thousands of miles away, and even getting to them in a reasonable amount of time is impossible. I'm slowly coming to terms with the reality that, due to all of this (and people's stupidity), I will likely never see them again.

zontar 02-17-2021 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3691059)
I'm guessing you are a teacher? Out of curiosity how have things gone where you teach as far as in school transmission etc.

approx 1/4 of staff have tested positive, including me. several parents have tested positive and had to pull their kids for 10-14 days, depending on current protocol (not sure of percentage, probably less than 10 percent). I take kids outside a LOT, even when the temp is near 0f. we have windows cracked for ventilation. they're a hardy bunch and dressed appropriately. they don't social distance by any means, but are masked up except for lunch. I don't eat with them.

autocrosscrx 02-17-2021 08:17 AM

I don't really understand why we put so much emphasis on the outside part. I have work crews that are outside and pretty much if 1 person in a crew tests positive, the whole crew tests positive. We can't social distance, but masking is very strict (with only demasking to get something to drink during breaks and eating lunch).

VictorB 02-17-2021 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691137)
I don't really understand why we put so much emphasis on the outside part. I have work crews that are outside and pretty much if 1 person in a crew tests positive, the whole crew tests positive. We can't social distance, but masking is very strict (with only demasking to get something to drink during breaks and eating lunch).

because during golf you can control your distancing and who you play with and when. At work, you *have* to be with the same people even if you don't trust how they act or what they are doing outside of work.

I play with a select few rational people that I trust (luckily my normal crew that I play with), and that I know are taking basic precaution when we aren't on the course. If we all continue to do that, then golfing will be a nice respite from all the other bullsht that we all have to put up with in our daily lives.

BogeyNoMore 02-17-2021 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691137)
I don't really understand why we put so much emphasis on the outside part. I have work crews that are outside and pretty much if 1 person in a crew tests positive, the whole crew tests positive. We can't social distance, but masking is very strict (with only demasking to get something to drink during breaks and eating lunch).

This makes perfect sense to me.

My take is being outside makes it easier to distance, assuming the activity allows for it.

Presumably, there's better ventilation as well, but it's not like being outside, in and of itself, greatly reduces exposure info you can't (or don't) distance.

autocrosscrx 02-17-2021 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3691141)
because during golf you can control your distancing and who you play with and when. At work, you *have* to be with the same people even if you don't trust how they act or what they are doing outside of work.

I play with a select few rational people that I trust (luckily my normal crew that I play with), and that I know are taking basic precaution when we aren't on the course. If we all continue to do that, then golfing will be a nice respite from all the other bullsht that we all have to put up with in our daily lives.

I'm not really sure why you brought up golf.

I was talking more about the thing where we put a bunch of people 7 feet apart outside, then a bunch of people from the group gets Covid and we're like, "I don't know why those big dummies got Covid, they must have all been having individual indoor house parties or something."

dysmike 02-17-2021 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691152)
I'm not really sure why you brought up golf.

I was talking more about the thing where we put a bunch of people 7 feet apart outside, then a bunch of people from the group gets Covid and we're like, "I don't know why those big dummies got Covid, they must have all been having individual indoor house parties or something."

It's because contraction really affected by two things. One being airflow, and the other being exposure to someone who is contagious. The more airflow you have, the more time you need. It's just pretty simple fluid dynamics. If you're 7 foot apart from some dude for 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week.. that time adds up. If it's calm, then it's a lot more like being indoors.

So, in general, it's safer outdoors.. but yea, people do catch covid outside regularly enough.

R-Ogre 02-17-2021 10:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
XKCD coming in clutch as per usual.https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1613574424

ru4por 02-17-2021 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691152)
I'm not really sure why you brought up golf.

I was talking more about the thing where we put a bunch of people 7 feet apart outside, then a bunch of people from the group gets Covid and we're like, "I don't know why those big dummies got Covid, they must have all been having individual indoor house parties or something."

Risk assessment is a multi piece puzzle, as are the tools at our disposal for combating the virus.

When assessing risk things like the below are part of the algorhythm.

Ventilation
Exposure time
Proximity
Physical contact
Number of people around you
Number of people who have been there
Distance
Personal effort to mitigate opportunity for the virus
Others effort to mitigate opportunity for the virus
Previous infection or vaccination of those around you
Transportation to and from
Quality of masking
Wind
Force of breathing of those around you
Evaluation of risk of all those you are in contact with
COVID varient.


Tools available and how many are properly used
Masks
Distancing
Vaccine
Frequent handwashing
Not touching your face
Use of shield or goggles

This is an incomplete list. Just off the top of my head. But, outside checks off several of the first boxes. None of this assures safety, just a small step toward decreasing the risk.

I know you know all this. But, if everyone at your work caught it, the suggestion was an error or a high risk moment. Maybe riding together to the job? It only takes a small mistake for a quick second to risk exposure. Though, much research tend to point to time of exposure and viral load as greater risks.

We can do everything right and still get COVID. I don't think I could have been much more careful at the nursing home....I mean I was DILIGENT. But, I got it. I think the only thing we can do is check as many boxes as possible....and outside is just one box.

VictorB 02-17-2021 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691152)
I'm not really sure why you brought up golf.

relating it back to why we're all on this board in the first place. It's also the only time I am around people outside of my house where I don't wear a mask while trying to distance.

Jay Dub 02-18-2021 08:41 AM

According to the AP life expectancy dropped by 1 year because of the pandemic.

Nick Pacific 02-18-2021 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691137)
I don't really understand why we put so much emphasis on the outside part. I have work crews that are outside and pretty much if 1 person in a crew tests positive, the whole crew tests positive. We can't social distance, but masking is very strict (with only demasking to get something to drink during breaks and eating lunch).

Interesting. What kind of work? I was sort of under the impression that as long as you're outside your risk of transmission is extremely low, but it seems being around the same people 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lot of time for even outdoors and you're going to end up sucking in the same air far too often.

Makes me wonder how NOBODY on the DGPT or the crew in 2020 tested positive?

Jay Dub 02-18-2021 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Pacific (Post 3691401)
Interesting. What kind of work? I was sort of under the impression that as long as you're outside your risk of transmission is extremely low, but it seems being around the same people 8 hours a day 5 days a week is a lot of time for even outdoors and you're going to end up sucking in the same air far too often.

Makes me wonder how NOBODY on the DGPT or the crew in 2020 tested positive?

Medical records are sealed for a reason. Just because we never heard of it does not mean it happened or did not happen.

BogeyNoMore 02-18-2021 09:03 AM

Jay Dub gas a valid point, but if someone did test positive, I'd think they'd feel obligated to tell the others people on the tour/crew that they've been on contact with, "Hey, I tested positive. You better get tested yourself.

Given the lens the DGPT happens under, it could be pretty hard to keep that under wraps.

I'm not condoning the lack of distancing and masking I saw from pros and staff this last year, but to a certain degree, you might say they created their own travelling bubble.

Or maybe they just got lucky.

Jay Dub 02-18-2021 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore (Post 3691407)
Jay Dub gas a valid point, but if someone did test positive, I'd think they'd feel obligated to tell the others people on the tour/crew that they've been on contact with, "Hey, I tested positive. You better get tested yourself.

Given the lens the DGPT happens under, it could be pretty hard to keep that under wraps.

I'm not condoning the lack of distancing and masking I saw from pros and staff this last year, but to a certain degree, you might say they created their own travelling bubble.

Or maybe they just got lucky.

Let's hope that what all of them would have done.

autocrosscrx 02-18-2021 09:16 AM

Construction. All crafts. We've only attributed like 1% of the transmission of our cases to happening at work. But that has more to do with the lack of conclusive information that can be gleaned from contact tracing.

...but I also know people that have worked from home and not gone out to eat and whatnot, and played golf with like minded friends. And the entire foursome tested positive about a week after they played. But none of them have even entertained the possibility that they got it from playing golf. Because, hey man, we were outside. They just think that COVID is so widespread that it is a total coincidence that they all 4 happened to get it at the same time after not getting it the last half a year.

ru4por 02-18-2021 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691414)
Construction. All crafts. We've only attributed like 1% of the transmission of our cases to happening at work. But that has more to do with the lack of conclusive information that can be gleaned from contact tracing.

...but I also know people that have worked from home and not gone out to eat and whatnot, and played golf with like minded friends. And the entire foursome tested positive about a week after they played. But none of them have even entertained the possibility that they got it from playing golf. Because, hey man, we were outside. They just think that COVID is so widespread that it is a total coincidence that they all 4 happened to get it at the same time after not getting it the last half a year.

There are no absolutes. That was kind of the gist of my post below. You can go outside golfing, high five, hug, wear no mask, scream at one another, pass a bottle, puff/pass and generally disregard all measures to protect yourself and one another. In this case the small advantage of being outside is significantly reduced. The variables are vast and outside is only one small variable. Really focusing on the multiplying impact of grouping lots of protective measures and eliminating multiple risks is the goal. Even with golfers doing most of the right things, it still only diminishes the risk. Now throw in a variant that is 7x more contagious.

Looked at in isolation, outside is safer than inside. Things are rarely isolated though.

VictorB 02-18-2021 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Pacific (Post 3691401)

Makes me wonder how NOBODY on the DGPT or the crew in 2020 tested positive?

they were wearing masks (at least some of the time) and there were travel pod/distancing rules in place on and off the course.

Monocacy 02-18-2021 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691414)
Construction. All crafts. We've only attributed like 1% of the transmission of our cases to happening at work. But that has more to do with the lack of conclusive information that can be gleaned from contact tracing.

A study of hospitalization rates among construction workers showed significant COVID risk:

Based on COVID-19 hospitalization data through August 20, 2020, construction workers had a nearly 5-fold increased risk of hospitalization in central Texas compared with other occupational categories.

Source: Estimated Association of Construction Work With Risks of COVID-19 Infection and Hospitalization in Texas | JAMA Network Open | October 2020

Construction/renovation sites can be high-contact workplaces, in my experience. Some construction/renovation takes place indoors (often with no HVAC), and many construction sites have a trailer for coffee, meetings, and getting out of the weather. Lack of paid leave and health insurance may also contribute to elevated COVID hospitalization rates among construction workers, and construction workers may have higher COVID rates due to non-work factors. And of course wearing a mask all day while doing physical labor isn't the most enjoyable thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrosscrx (Post 3691414)
...but I also know people that have worked from home and not gone out to eat and whatnot, and played golf with like minded friends. And the entire foursome tested positive about a week after they played. . . .

Right, you can put the odds in your favor but sometimes you just roll snake eyes. Maybe one member of the group just happened to be a superspreader at peak infectivity. Maybe the air was stagnant or the temperature/humidity was optimal for transmission that day. Etc.

But I have also seen disc golfers who seemed to be distancing while playing, and then they all hopped into a car together at the end of the round. It is hard to act as if you and your friends/family are potential germ factories 100% of the time.

Jay Dub 02-18-2021 01:34 PM

Quote:

But I have also seen disc golfers who seemed to be distancing while playing, and then they all hopped into a car together at the end of the round. It is hard to act as if you and your friends/family are potential germ factories 100% of the time.
Last year on a local page a disc golfer who had spoken out in favor of wearing masks and following guidelines posted a rant about how 3 of them drove their cars to the parking lot at the course and the spots were all taken. (They weren't but at this time the parking was limited because of COVID). I can't recall his exact complaint at that time but it was valid.

He then went to say they had to drive 2 miles away, park 2 of the cars and carpool back to the course. The 3 of them in one car.
Once the irony was pointed out he apologized, said yeah that was wrong and deleted his rant.

He's a good guy with good intentions and still messed up because this is all so new to all of us, even more so last year.

JuanA 02-18-2021 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Dub (Post 3691405)
Medical records are sealed for a reason. Just because we never heard of it does not mean it happened or did not happen.

We had someone at our other building test positive, and HIPPA prohibited our work from telling all of us who it was. Those with exposure were notified and given 2 weeks off to quarantine. A negative test was also required before they could return to work.

This happened months ago, and my manager just told me about it last week. Sounds crazy, but the law is the law.

ru4por 02-18-2021 02:05 PM

110,000 COVID vaccinations have been provided by the healthcare system I work for. Over 40,000 complete with second shots. CEO voicing frustration at struggles to get the number of vaccines to even cover our second shots from the state. Initial vaccination opportunities are stalled due to problems covering the second shots.

jakebake91 02-18-2021 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3691533)
110,000 COVID vaccinations have been provided by the healthcare system I work for. Over 40,000 complete with second shots. CEO voicing frustration at struggles to get the number of vaccines to even cover our second shots from the state. Initial vaccination opportunities are stalled due to problems covering the second shots.

I'm starting to hear similar stories up here in WI too. Ceo of one of our bigger hospitals locally says that they are struggling to get the needed doses from the state.

My question was do they know for sure that the state is sitting and a stockpile and not distributing them? If that's the case, why? Or are we actually starting to see a shortage?

I'm scheduled for my second shot in 3 weeks. Hoping I can actually get it.

ru4por 02-18-2021 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3691538)
I'm starting to hear similar stories up here in WI too. Ceo of one of our bigger hospitals locally says that they are struggling to get the needed doses from the state.

My question was do they know for sure that the state is sitting and a stockpile and not distributing them? If that's the case, why? Or are we actually starting to see a shortage?

I'm scheduled for my second shot in 3 weeks. Hoping I can actually get it.

Great questions....I don't know. The state notifies us every Friday as to how many vaccination will be allotted to us. Granted, they are allotting vaccines across the entire state. I would be more curious at to whom, if anyone is not able to give their allotment. Are community centers in small towns sitting on doses due to lack of resources to give them?

JuanA 02-18-2021 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakebake91 (Post 3691538)
...I'm scheduled for my second shot in 3 weeks. Hoping I can actually get it.

So what happens if you can't get the second on time? Do you start over?

I've been wondering this because I've heard people on the radio complaining about the same thing.

Monocacy 02-18-2021 02:57 PM

Looks like Wisconsin has a pretty informative vaccine site, if you feel like burrowing into the data.

Wisconsin COVID-19 vaccine data (clicky)

Monocacy 02-18-2021 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuanA (Post 3691551)
So what happens if you can't get the second on time? Do you start over?

"You should get your second shot as close to the recommended 3-week or 1-month interval as possible. However, there is no maximum interval between the first and second doses for either vaccine. You should not get the second dose earlier than the recommended interval."

Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC

DG_player 02-18-2021 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuanA (Post 3691551)
So what happens if you can't get the second on time? Do you start over?

I've been wondering this because I've heard people on the radio complaining about the same thing.

I wouldn't stress it. The U.K. is actually purposefully doing this because their modeling suggests they can save more lives by only administering as many first doses as possible before giving people second shots.

Be glad you got one!

JedV 02-18-2021 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuanA (Post 3691551)
So what happens if you can't get the second on time? Do you start over?

I've been wondering this because I've heard people on the radio complaining about the same thing.

I'll be getting my second Pfizer vaccine dose in the 27th of Feb. That will be 45 days after the first :|

Canada's roll out has been crappy. I'm grateful on one hand to be at the front of the line as a health care worker, but, on the other hand am concerned that the product I'm receiving has not been tested in this manner.

Time will tell if this was a botch by the local government decision makers. They specifically decided to not hold back 2nd doses and crossed their fingers that the supply would keep rolling in. Then the factory in Europe was retooled and here we are. :(

DG_player 02-18-2021 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monocacy (Post 3691514)
Lack of paid leave and health insurance may also contribute to elevated COVID hospitalization rates among construction workers

This is a huge issue in a lot of industries. People are often critical of people for being irresponsible. But put yourself in their shoes. Imagine you're living paycheck to paycheck, have a family to feed, and suddenly feel sick. Are you going to shell out some money for a Covid test only so you can find yourself positive and have to miss 2 weeks of work without pay?

Look at the few states that have done exceptionally well, Vermont being one for example. In spite of being next to the original epicenter, their deaths per capita is 1/5th the national average. They quickly realized it takes more than asking people to do the right thing. They incentivized them to do so and made sure no one had to make the choice between feeding their family and spreading the virus.

BogeyNoMore 02-18-2021 09:36 PM

Extremely valid points.

Unfortunately, many of the jobs where people actually have to "be there," don't offer paid sick time, or pay enough that employees can afford to miss time if they do become sick.

And I'm sure many such jobs also make it difficult to distance.

It's not that Covid discriminates. But no way in hell it affects high income individuals and their families the same as it affects those of lower incomes.

dysmike 02-18-2021 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore (Post 3691640)
Extremely valid points.

Unfortunately, many of the jobs where people actually have to "be there," don't offer paid sick time, or pay enough that employees can afford to miss time if they do become sick.

And I'm sure many such jobs also make it difficult to distance.

It's not that Covid discriminates. But no way in hell it affects high income individuals and their families the same as it affects those of lower incomes.

https://i.imgur.com/edBQBeJ.gif

Anything past this I could say, would be viewed as political... despite being meant as simply humanitarian.


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