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scooby snack 10-10-2020 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3642360)
Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

It doesn't matter how far you see yourself throwing in your mind.

Throwing over 370 a few times doesn't make you a 400' thrower. It doesn't really even mean you are a 370' thrower.

That's like a pitcher saying they throw 90 mph, but in reality they touched 90 measured with a questionable radar gun rather than sitting 90 measured with something as accurate as a Stalker or Jugs.

Can the pitcher sit at 90 mph?

Can the thrower consistently throw 400'?

Can they actually do it, not just in their mind?

Not this RoDeO

RoDeO 10-10-2020 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3642360)
Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

It doesn't matter how far you see yourself throwing in your mind.

Throwing over 370 a few times doesn't make you a 400' thrower. It doesn't really even mean you are a 370' thrower.

That's like a pitcher saying they throw 90 mph, but in reality they touched 90 measured with a questionable radar gun rather than sitting 90 measured with something as accurate as a Stalker or Jugs.

Can the pitcher sit at 90 mph?

Can the thrower consistently throw 400'?

Can they actually do it, not just in their mind?

I think you missed my point. "In my mind" meaning that I see myself throwing 400 feet- having that ability right now in my mind if I could put all of the pieces together. Does that mean I'm a 400 feet guy? Absolutely not, that wasn't my point. My point was that if I could put it all together like I see in my mind, I could throw 400. There's so much into getting that perfect throw, especially just starting out. In our minds we envision how we want the throw to go, know our capabilities, etc. I have a lot of throws in practice where the line I throw on doesn't have quite the right angle, didn't get high enough, was too high, etc. Kind of like- the power is there but gotta figure out the angle and control now.
I feel my power is greater than my control and finesse right now. I have actually powered down some to work on control.

dreadlock86 10-10-2020 07:02 PM

cool story, son

RowingBoats 10-11-2020 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642402)
I think you missed my point. "In my mind" meaning that I see myself throwing 400 feet- having that ability right now in my mind if I could put all of the pieces together. Does that mean I'm a 400 feet guy? Absolutely not, that wasn't my point. My point was that if I could put it all together like I see in my mind, I could throw 400. There's so much into getting that perfect throw, especially just starting out. In our minds we envision how we want the throw to go, know our capabilities, etc. I have a lot of throws in practice where the line I throw on doesn't have quite the right angle, didn't get high enough, was too high, etc. Kind of like- the power is there but gotta figure out the angle and control now.
I feel my power is greater than my control and finesse right now. I have actually powered down some to work on control.

Separating the concepts of power, control, and finesse, particularly in disc golf, seems utterly absurd to me. I am having good results with the complete opposite approach, and the opposite approach is almost universally used to become proficient at complex tasks.

Doing athletic movements faster and harder, more powerfully, is built upon a foundation of slow training and drills. This isn't even debatable from my perspective and experience.

RoDeO 10-11-2020 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3642601)
Separating the concepts of power, control, and finesse, particularly in disc golf, seems utterly absurd to me. I am having good results with the complete opposite approach, and the opposite approach is almost universally used to become proficient at complex tasks.

Doing athletic movements faster and harder, more powerfully, is built upon a foundation of slow training and drills. This isn't even debatable from my perspective and experience.

Not quite sure what you are getting at. Power, control and finesse are separate functions. One has to have power to throw max drives. With max drives however, you give up control in some degree. A max drive isn't a finesse type of shot. A finesse shot doesn't really rely on power so much but is more about shaping a line and angle for more control. Now, in the case of a beginner they are learning different aspects. Learning how to power up tee shots is very important. Not a lot of thought is put into the finesse part of the shot when learning power, meaning, we aren't trying to finesse a controlled exact placement shot when we are learning how to throw with max effort. Even for pros, on an absolute open fairway max drive they are not so much concerned with a controlled finesse shot as much as they are concerned with distance in a general location. Max shots have a great variance on where they end up. Controlled shots require more finesse and care with the sacrifice of power.

So, they are connected in some degree but in large part, power, finesse, and control are separate parts of the equation that go into a throw.

RowingBoats 10-11-2020 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642663)
Not quite sure what you are getting at. Power, control and finesse are separate functions. One has to have power to throw max drives. With max drives however, you give up control in some degree. A max drive isn't a finesse type of shot. A finesse shot doesn't really rely on power so much but is more about shaping a line and angle for more control. Now, in the case of a beginner they are learning different aspects. Learning how to power up tee shots is very important. Not a lot of thought is put into the finesse part of the shot when learning power, meaning, we aren't trying to finesse a controlled exact placement shot when we are learning how to throw with max effort. Even for pros, on an absolute open fairway max drive they are not so much concerned with a controlled finesse shot as much as they are concerned with distance in a general location. Max shots have a great variance on where they end up. Controlled shots require more finesse and care with the sacrifice of power.

So, they are connected in some degree but in large part, power, finesse, and control are separate parts of the equation that go into a throw.

The entire idea of even attempting to throw a 'max effort' shot before you have dialed in the correct technique just doesn't make sense to me. Good luck.

NoseDownKing 10-11-2020 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3642681)
The entire idea of even attempting to throw a 'max effort' shot before you have dialed in the correct technique just doesn't make sense to me. Good luck.

I agree. People with great technique also have great efficiency. Meaning the effort they put into a shot gets transfered into the shot instead of just being useless. Throwing max effort with inefficient technique means, that most of that energy gets wasted and you're just exaggerating the flaws in your form.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

RowingBoats 10-11-2020 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642663)
Not quite sure what you are getting at. Power, control and finesse are separate functions. One has to have power to throw max drives. With max drives however, you give up control in some degree. A max drive isn't a finesse type of shot. A finesse shot doesn't really rely on power so much but is more about shaping a line and angle for more control. Now, in the case of a beginner they are learning different aspects. Learning how to power up tee shots is very important. Not a lot of thought is put into the finesse part of the shot when learning power, meaning, we aren't trying to finesse a controlled exact placement shot when we are learning how to throw with max effort. Even for pros, on an absolute open fairway max drive they are not so much concerned with a controlled finesse shot as much as they are concerned with distance in a general location. Max shots have a great variance on where they end up. Controlled shots require more finesse and care with the sacrifice of power.

So, they are connected in some degree but in large part, power, finesse, and control are separate parts of the equation that go into a throw.

Also I reject your premise that professional drives are fundamentally more inaccurate solely because of the power of the swing. You are implying that pros, when driving, have much more fluctuation in their actual technique and physical movement, and I do not believe this is the case. The variables that are outside of the swing's control are exacerbated. The disc traverses much more atmosphere, wind, etc, and the shape of drivers makes them more prone to unpredictable flight.

RoDeO 10-11-2020 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3642685)
Also I reject your premise that professional drives are fundamentally more inaccurate solely because of the power of the swing. You are implying that pros, when driving, have much more fluctuation in their actual technique and physical movement, and I do not believe this is the case. The variables that are outside of the swing's control are exacerbated. The disc traverses much more atmosphere, wind, etc, and the shape of drivers makes them more prone to unpredictable flight.

Yes, the disc traverses much more factors outside of a player's cobtrol on a max effort shot. But with more power also comes a decrease in control by the player throwing it. Think of it on a scale where on one end you have control and less distance and the other end you have power and distance but less control. Thus, on the control side you have the player shaping a perfect s curve around several trees, water hazards, OB and up to a basket where they want it to land in an exact spot. This kind of shot takes great planning and care and finesse. Whereas on the power side you have an open fairway, 150 feet wide and 700 feet long and they are just trying to get it generally somewhere in the fairway as far down as they can. There isn't as much care in this kind of shot. Max power creates inconsistencies in a player's mechanics, even for pros. It's why, in tournaments on these wide open fairways that players will land in different areas each day often on the same holes.

wolfhaley 10-12-2020 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreadlock86 (Post 3642472)
cool story, son

RoDeO's form ain't nothing to f*** with.

Or it's serious delerium, bill murray.


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