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-   -   Mistaken backhand "griplock" releases where the disc flies far and magically. (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140613)

hisdudeness47 11-25-2021 09:06 PM

Mistaken backhand "griplock" releases where the disc flies far and magically.
 
You know the throw... the backhand release where it sort of sticks to your hand and comes out right of your target line (for a righty) but with beautiful snap, magical turn (sometimes never fading), and distance you didn't know you had. This happens sometimes when I'm playing and it happened a few times today during field work as I was working on my hips, plant foot angle, and brace. I'm hitting 450-500 feet on these "mistake" throws when my typical max is 375-400. These throws are a mistake and are often inaccurate (as the line is way right of target but sometimes they fade back somewhat close) but they feel right, kind of like its ripping out of my hand at the right moment vs my typical release. Something is clicking properly but I can't replicate it when I try. I haven't quite put my finger on what it is.

What is happening with these throws that I'm not doing normally? How can I harness that power/snap? How can I harness it on the CORRECT line? What's the sauce? I know I have this distance but I can't do it on command. I feel like I'm right on the edge of something awesome.

DavidSauls 11-25-2021 09:57 PM

I was recently given a tip that, instead of putting my plant foot directly in the line of the throw, to set it a bit left of the line. It immediately made sense to me, for the same experience you're having; and immediately helped my (meager) distance.

I couldn't say why; I'm guessing it's keeping the hips (or shoulders) closed a little longer.

hisdudeness47 11-25-2021 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidSauls (Post 3771120)
I was recently given a tip that, instead of putting my plant foot directly in the line of the throw, to set it a bit left of the line. It immediately made sense to me, for the same experience you're having; and immediately helped my (meager) distance.

I couldn't say why; I'm guessing it's keeping the hips (or shoulders) closed a little longer.

Yeah I really do think it has something to do with my right hip. On these throws I can really feel a pronounced whip/snap, more than normal. I was/am definitely planting open and flying open early and that's what I'm workin on.

How can I trick myself into keeping my right hip closed juuuuuuust a bit longer?

sidewinder22 11-25-2021 10:19 PM

Close up your stance and shoulders to target and release the arm wide away from your body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=2m10s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-vWZgnNSk#t=4m4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-KVWfUkQ3s#t=1m5s

DavidSauls 11-25-2021 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 (Post 3771121)
Yeah I really do think it has something to do with my right hip. On these throws I can really feel a pronounced whip/snap, more than normal. I was/am definitely planting open and flying open early and that's what I'm workin on.

How can I trick myself into keeping my right hip closed juuuuuuust a bit longer?

The advice I was given, was to put your plant foot down further left than where you have been. That is, don't move diagonally across the tee; move straight towards the line of throw, but put that last foot down left of that line.

With a grain of salt; I'm no expert on form. Just a tip I was given, that helped me.

And that I suspect is related to that experience of "griplocking" with surprising distance.

txmxer 11-26-2021 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidSauls (Post 3771120)
I was recently given a tip that, instead of putting my plant foot directly in the line of the throw, to set it a bit left of the line. It immediately made sense to me, for the same experience you're having; and immediately helped my (meager) distance.

I couldn't say why; I'm guessing it's keeping the hips (or shoulders) closed a little longer.

This is exactly what I wrote about in the thread I posted the other day--but I was initially talking about getting the disc out nose down.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=140556

I played Thursday knowing in my previous round, I had not been able to duplicate my field work on the course. I had some of my best drives ever on the more open holes. Couple that I screwed up, but I think that holding the disc a fraction longer can add a lot of snap and distance.

jupiterboy 11-26-2021 04:28 PM

I think one thing I am struggling with is keeping a nice, tidy box in the power pocket, so when I'm throwing normally, my elbow gets out in front of my shoulder. Throws like you are talking about happen to me when I get grip lock AND have my elbow out in front.

BillFleming 11-27-2021 09:53 PM

The "beautiful throw, wrong line" throws are the worst. They show you what you are capable of if you could just get everything perfect at the right time.

hisdudeness47 11-30-2021 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 (Post 3771114)
You know the throw... the backhand release where it sort of sticks to your hand and comes out right of your target line (for a righty) but with beautiful snap, magical turn (sometimes never fading), and distance you didn't know you had. This happens sometimes when I'm playing and it happened a few times today during field work as I was working on my hips, plant foot angle, and brace. I'm hitting 450-500 feet on these "mistake" throws when my typical max is 375-400. These throws are a mistake and are often inaccurate (as the line is way right of target but sometimes they fade back somewhat close) but they feel right, kind of like its ripping out of my hand at the right moment vs my typical release. Something is clicking properly but I can't replicate it when I try. I haven't quite put my finger on what it is.

What is happening with these throws that I'm not doing normally? How can I harness that power/snap? How can I harness it on the CORRECT line? What's the sauce? I know I have this distance but I can't do it on command. I feel like I'm right on the edge of something awesome.

OP CONTINUED

Added a practice video. I'm mainly focusing on my brace and hip engagement in these ones. Some reps felt/look better than others for sure. I'm also pretty fidgety right now with all my form changes and new details I've learned flowing thru my head.

Side Approach (threw midranges): https://youtu.be/RvyzW0JR1o0

If you guys have any tips, feel free to roast me!

navel 11-30-2021 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 (Post 3771699)
OP CONTINUED

Added a practice video. I'm mainly focusing on my brace and hip engagement in these ones. Some reps felt/look better than others for sure. I'm also pretty fidgety right now with all my form changes and new details I've learned flowing thru my head.

Side Approach (threw midranges): https://youtu.be/RvyzW0JR1o0

If you guys have any tips, feel free to roast me!

I know that you are focusing on new movements and that sort of thing can really make you tense up, but you are way too tense right now. You are way too focused on forced balance, motions and movements.

If you are training for smooth and relaxed form your training should be smooth and relaxed too. See if you can do the same movements with athletic relaxation and a clear mind. Should look and feel like a dance move, not like a seizure.
Easiest way to get relaxed is doing something that you normally do relaxed and then carry that relaxation into the throwing movement. Try walking towards target for a few steps. Anywhere from 5-20 steps, then just flow into the throw naturally as smooth as possible. Your body shouldn't feel much different than walking = balanced, relaxed, and athletic.

hisdudeness47 11-30-2021 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3771701)
I know that you are focusing on new movements and that sort of thing can really make you tense up, but you are way too tense right now. You are way too focused on forced balance, motions and movements.

If you are training for smooth and relaxed form your training should be smooth and relaxed too. See if you can do the same movements with athletic relaxation and a clear mind. Should look and feel like a dance move, not like a seizure.
Easiest way to get relaxed is doing something that you normally do relaxed and then carry that relaxation into the throwing movement. Try walking towards target for a few steps. Anywhere from 5-20 steps, then just flow into the throw naturally as smooth as possible. Your body shouldn't feel much different than walking = balanced, relaxed, and athletic.

Oh you mean to tell me this doesn't look like effortless Macbethian powah? :)

My muscle memory and shot routine was lost a few weeks ago with the form teardown haha. I don't have a new routine yet. Its just my brain screaming "Elbow up, *******!", "Point your ass at the target, bitch!", "Set your wrist like you're pouring coffee like I told you!", "Watch the disc through the power pocket, dumbass!", "Point your belt buckle from 7 to 11 o'clock!", "Crack that whip, son! What are you, WEAK OR SOMETHING!?"

I'll get there someday.

DavidSauls 11-30-2021 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 (Post 3771703)
Oh you mean to tell me this doesn't look like effortless Macbethian powah? :)

My muscle memory and shot routine was lost a few weeks ago with the form teardown haha. I don't have a new routine yet. Its just my brain screaming "Elbow up, *******!", "Point your ass at the target, bitch!", "Set your wrist like you're pouring coffee like I told you!", "Watch the disc through the power pocket, dumbass!", "Point your belt buckle from 7 to 11 o'clock!", "Crack that whip, son! What are you, WEAK OR SOMETHING!?"

I'll get there someday.

I wish you well.

I try to explain to people that I have 13 flaws in my motion, and I can only corral 8 of them at once. So any given throw is going to have 5 faults. Like smoothing a bump in a rug, if I concentrate on one, another goes. I'm sure one day I'll be thinking so much about my feet and elbow and reachback and follow-through, that I'll find I forgot to bring a disc to the tee.

coupe 11-30-2021 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidSauls (Post 3771706)
I wish you well.

I try to explain to people that I have 13 flaws in my motion, and I can only corral 8 of them at once. So any given throw is going to have 5 faults. Like smoothing a bump in a rug, if I concentrate on one, another goes. I'm sure one day I'll be thinking so much about my feet and elbow and reachback and follow-through, that I'll find I forgot to bring a disc to the tee.

But in your mind's eye, the throw will be perfect! :thmbup:

Waddball 11-30-2021 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3771701)
Should look and feel like a dance move, not like a seizure.

Okay, you got me, I laughed.

:clap:

jakebake91 11-30-2021 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3771701)
I Should look and feel like a dance move, not like a seizure.

You've never seen me dance....... seizure would be a compliment lol

MrLia 11-30-2021 03:21 PM

Paul Ulibarri just posted a video of grip, its for inside 200f but think it wil realate to longer ranges aswell.
been squeezing the disc into my palm for so long and had grip locks all the time because of it. Working on a 2 finger grip now to learn how to undo the muscle memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPe...l=PaulUlibarri

bdarg34 12-01-2021 04:30 AM

Newbie here !! I am trying to work on form as well....I gained 40'-50' from adding a pump and recoil of RHBH before I throw...hope it helps ya...my arm is getting sore so be sure to stretch !!

txmxer 12-02-2021 09:00 PM

Grip is unique to everyone because hands are unique.

This thread title is about maintaining grip as long as possible to achieve maximum acceleration up to release. Having a well connected grip as long as possible is important, but the release can take speed off the disc as well—somewhat related to Uli’s video.

My hands are smaller. Trying to throw nose down has been really difficult.

I tried something new today. My thumb AND pointer on top of the flight plate. It’s an interesting twist on getting snap on the disc because I’m pretty locked in without having to over flex my forearm. It was inconsistent today, but I think it has promise.

Waddball 12-03-2021 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3772424)
I tried something new today. My thumb AND pointer on top of the flight plate. Itís an interesting twist on getting snap on the disc because Iím pretty locked in without having to over flex my forearm. It was inconsistent today, but I think it has promise.

That sounds a lot like the Bonopane grip. I messed around with that a while back. It's amazing for throwing nose down, but for me any advantage was offset by making it very hard to hang on. It's just awkward. But apparently people still use it, and it's certainly useful for seeing exaggerated effects of nose down (esp. in a tailwind).

You might want to try finger on top of thumb (I think that's the traditional Bonopane) vs finger under thumb. I had better luck with the former, but maybe worth experimenting.

hawgdriver 12-03-2021 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3772424)
Grip is unique to everyone because hands are unique.

This thread title is about maintaining grip as long as possible to achieve maximum acceleration up to release. Having a well connected grip as long as possible is important, but the release can take speed off the disc as well—somewhat related to Uli’s video.

My hands are smaller. Trying to throw nose down has been really difficult.

I tried something new today. My thumb AND pointer on top of the flight plate. It’s an interesting twist on getting snap on the disc because I’m pretty locked in without having to over flex my forearm. It was inconsistent today, but I think it has promise.

One tip I heard was to hold the disc soft until release, then bear down a bit with your grip through release.

I messed with it but never committed to it. To some extent I know I do it intrinsically but I don't think about it. I know there's some truth to the general idea (loose grip = more whippy arm, tight grip = higher max force before it's ripped away), but now I have a mind to revisit it more deliberately.

On some of my hardest rips my hand will feel it, it's like the release recoil and I feel it on the web of my thumb. Or maybe it's my fingers snapping together. Not sure.

BillFleming 12-10-2021 12:30 PM

I am using my GoPro to film my fieldwork and practice rounds. It has shown me something interesting in my RHBH throws. I thought I was early releasing some throws and grip locking others. My videos show otherwise.

I have three backhand throwing styles.....only one produces what I want. It all has to do with my plant/pivot foot not matching up with my body turning.

1. My body is turning before my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes left (using a clock image....released at 10)
2. My body turns after my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes right (2 o'clock)
3. My body turns as my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes straight (12 o'clock).

A lot has to do with my walk-up speed....go too fast, my body turn gets out of sync with my foot plant/pivot.

hisdudeness47 12-10-2021 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3774283)
I am using my GoPro to film my fieldwork and practice rounds. It has shown me something interesting in my RHBH throws. I thought I was early releasing some throws and grip locking others. My videos show otherwise.

I have three backhand throwing styles.....only one produces what I want. It all has to do with my plant/pivot foot not matching up with my body turning.

1. My body is turning before my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes left (using a clock image....released at 10)
2. My body turns after my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes right (2 o'clock)
3. My body turns as my lead foot plants/pivots. Disc goes straight (12 o'clock).

A lot has to do with my walk-up speed....go too fast, my body turn gets out of sync with my foot plant/pivot.

Which is the one that you want?

BillFleming 12-10-2021 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 (Post 3774306)
Which is the one that you want?

I want my body to be turning as the front foot plants/pivots. Then the disc is going on its intended line. Whether I put the disco on hyzer, anhyzer, or straight is a different thing.

BillFleming 12-10-2021 04:46 PM

More accurately:
#1 appears to be an early release, but is actually my body out of position for the throw.
#2 appears to be a grip lock, but, again, is actually my body out of position for the throw.
#3 my body is in proper position and the disc is releasing on the intended line.

By noticing my foot/body movement, I was able to stop thinking it was a grip issue (too loose, too tight) and work on the real issue.

Waddball 12-13-2021 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3774331)
More accurately:
#1 appears to be an early release, but is actually my body out of position for the throw.
#2 appears to be a grip lock, but, again, is actually my body out of position for the throw.
#3 my body is in proper position and the disc is releasing on the intended line.

By noticing my foot/body movement, I was able to stop thinking it was a grip issue (too loose, too tight) and work on the real issue.

This idea of the "real" issue is useful. Symptoms vs root causes. Of course for me there's always several things that need fixing, but I do find that in general, I need to fix things from the ground up.

When I'm in good form, it's because the sequence is better. When things are wonky, it's usually because I'm trying to fix something toward the end of the sequence and I get sloppy with the early stuff. I don't have The Move down yet, so I can't go on autopilot with anything.

BillFleming 12-13-2021 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waddball (Post 3774770)
This idea of the "real" issue is useful. Symptoms vs root causes. Of course for me there's always several things that need fixing, but I do find that in general, I need to fix things from the ground up.

When I'm in good form, it's because the sequence is better. When things are wonky, it's usually because I'm trying to fix something toward the end of the sequence and I get sloppy with the early stuff. I don't have The Move down yet, so I can't go on autopilot with anything.

I don't use the term 'fix' because it implies something is broken. Instead, I use the term 'improve'. I don't want to fix my throw....I want to improve my throw. It's difficult to do because when you change one thing, it can affect other parts. For me, I'd like to be able to do a faster walk-up, but when I started that, I started losing accuracy and consistency because the rest of my body turn/throw got out of synch. So I understood that speeding up would cause me to accept the loss of consistency until I improved the rest of the timing. Right now, I'm limiting myself to a slow walk-up while I work solely on improving my pivot/throw sequence. Then I know any issues that come up with changes aren't due to my walk-up. Once I get everything together with my slow walk-up and don't have to think about it....then it will be time to work on speeding up my walk-up.

But it sure is hard to not 'tweak' multiple things at once.

gwsmallwood 12-13-2021 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3774812)
I don't use the term 'fix' because it implies something is broken. Instead, I use the term 'improve'. I don't want to fix my throw....I want to improve my throw. It's difficult to do because when you change one thing, it can affect other parts. For me, I'd like to be able to do a faster walk-up, but when I started that, I started losing accuracy and consistency because the rest of my body turn/throw got out of synch. So I understood that speeding up would cause me to accept the loss of consistency until I improved the rest of the timing. Right now, I'm limiting myself to a slow walk-up while I work solely on improving my pivot/throw sequence. Then I know any issues that come up with changes aren't due to my walk-up. Once I get everything together with my slow walk-up and don't have to think about it....then it will be time to work on speeding up my walk-up.

But it sure is hard to not 'tweak' multiple things at once.

I was just listening to Uli on YouTube talk about this. He thinks most of us get down in the weeds too often. His suggestion was to spend more time slowing down and working on the fluidity of the motions and less time trying to 'fix' minute details of the form.


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