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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-07-2020 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3641132)
A lot of people honestly believe a lot of things.

The body of evidence tells the truth.

For example, if you think the Feldberg video is completely wrong, then you simply do not understand how the throw works.

If you look at the kinetic sequence as demonstrated by world record distance thrower David Wiggins Jr. you will (should) see what Feldberg is talking about.

I don't think Feldberg does a very good job of explaining the throw. What he says and what he does are 2 different things. He thinks his hips are counter rotating into release. But in fact, they rotate around just like he says not to- calls it rounding.

sidewinder22 10-07-2020 09:23 PM

Dion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMC6OYzb3oY&t=3m9s

RoDeO 10-08-2020 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641267)

Great video. Dion really shows good technique getting the hips turning before weight shift. Awesome. Wish I could throw that far.

RandyC 10-08-2020 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641129)
In your one leg drill your shoulders begin rotating open first followed by your torso and then lastly your hips. You can see it clearly in the frame by frame. Nothing wrong with an all arm shot, there's times when you need to have a strong arm. It's just opposite the mechanics needed when driving off the tee for max distance. When you x step that sequence starts in the hips. That's what you do in your x step.

Here is a clear frame by frame. Knee is pointing at the camera and then facing forward. Femur is half of the knee, femur is other part of the hip. This is such a dumb convo because hips turn your shoulders. Shoulders do not turn your hips. I simply cannot do that without the hips.

https://i.imgur.com/tUQvKLo.gif

RoDeO 10-08-2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641371)
Here is a clear frame by frame. Knee is pointing at the camera and then facing forward. Femur is half of the knee, femur is other part of the hip. This is such a dumb convo because hips turn your shoulders. Shoulders do not turn your hips. I simply cannot do that without the hips.

https://i.imgur.com/tUQvKLo.gif

Upload your x step throw and we can compare. I'm not really seeing where your hip leads the shoulders here.

navel 10-08-2020 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641376)
Upload your x step throw and we can compare. I'm not really seeing where your hip leads the shoulders here.

Rodeo, come on now man...
Can you just accept the fact that you are wrong?
Multiple people keep telling you that you have a bad understanding of the throw and the kinetic sequence in whole. It's time that you just accept that you do.
You are delusional, and your self-belief is both scary and embarrassing at this point. People aren't telling you that you are wrong just for the fun of it. You are basically saying that 1+1=3, and your only evidence is that you have written 1+1=3 on your own paper. That's not how it works.

I threw further than you my first week of playing. 300' is not extraordinary by any means. But I had to start from scratch a few months later because my form was all kinds of wrong.
I've always thought that my throw is the right way to throw. Otherwise I wouldn't throw like that. However, I have never preached it to the crowds as facts. Because there has always been people who have been playing for longer, who has better results and are throwing both farther and with more accuracy. So I listen to these people instead. You should too. I've learned a ton since then thanks to all these amazing guys here on the forum.

Keep doing what you do if you want to. We wont stop you. Come back in a years time (if you haven't hurt yourself again) and show us that you can throw 450' as you believe you will. Nobody will have any problem with that.

I miss the pre-rodeo forum. This was a great place for learning new things. Right now all energy is put on arguing with you, and it sucks. You bring a bad energy and you aren't bringing anything positive to this site either. Please understand that.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3641381)
Rodeo, come on now man...
Can you just accept the fact that you are wrong?
Multiple people keep telling you that you have a bad understanding of the throw and the kinetic sequence in whole. It's time that you just accept that you do.
You are delusional, and your self-belief is both scary and embarrassing at this point. People aren't telling you that you are wrong just for the fun of it. You are basically saying that 1+1=3, and your only evidence is that you have written 1+1=3 on your own paper. That's not how it works.

I threw further than you my first week of playing. 300' is not extraordinary by any means. But I had to start from scratch a few months later because my form was all kinds of wrong.
I've always thought that my throw is the right way to throw. Otherwise I wouldn't throw like that. However, I have never preached it to the crowds as facts. Because there has always been people who have been playing for longer, who has better results and are throwing both farther and with more accuracy. So I listen to these people instead. You should too. I've learned a ton since then thanks to all these amazing guys here on the forum.

Keep doing what you do if you want to. We wont stop you. Come back in a years time (if you haven't hurt yourself again) and show us that you can throw 450' as you believe you will. Nobody will have any problem with that.

I miss the pre-rodeo forum. This was a great place for learning new things. Right now all energy is put on arguing with you, and it sucks. You bring a bad energy and you aren't bringing anything positive to this site either. Please understand that.

I'm not wrong though. The only reason I bring up the topic is to help people out. If people are getting bad advice and it's hurting their ability then wouldn't it be wise to help them out?

Kudos to you throwing 300 feet your first week. Some people throw wrong first starting out and some don't. I started playing right handed. It was wrong. I did things different left handed and the results so far have far surpassed my goals.

You don't have to like me or my advice but there are others who will understand where I'm coming from and it will change their game.

navel 10-08-2020 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641447)
I'm not wrong though. The only reason I bring up the topic is to help people out. If people are getting bad advice and it's hurting their ability then wouldn't it be wise to help them out?

Kudos to you throwing 300 feet your first week. Some people throw wrong first starting out and some don't. I started playing right handed. It was wrong. I did things different left handed and the results so far have far surpassed my goals.

You don't have to like me or my advice but there are others who will understand where I'm coming from and it will change their game.

You are helping no one. You are just feeding your own narcissism. The bad advices are coming from you, don't you see? If anything your advice will change their game for the worse and they might even hurt themselves trying your teachings. I feel bad knowing that some beginners might stumble upon a comment from you and try to whip their hip around forcefully and break their lower back or pull a muscle.

Also, I'm not trying to brag about throwing 300 feet when I first started. I'm saying that it proves nothing at all. With that form I maxed out sub 400 feet. There will be a plateau with every kind of form, and with a bad one you will reach it earlier. You will also put a lot more stress one your body and most certainly will miss the intended throwing line a lot. I promise you that.

RowingBoats 10-08-2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641447)
I'm not wrong though. The only reason I bring up the topic is to help people out. If people are getting bad advice and it's hurting their ability then wouldn't it be wise to help them out?

Kudos to you throwing 300 feet your first week. Some people throw wrong first starting out and some don't. I started playing right handed. It was wrong. I did things different left handed and the results so far have far surpassed my goals.

You don't have to like me or my advice but there are others who will understand where I'm coming from and it will change their game.

This is just so absurd. You can literally read years-long threads and watch Sidewinder's advice manifest itself into better mechanics for that person. If you do so and begin implementing the lateral shift concept correctly, you will feel where the well of additional momentum can be found.

You aren't going to help anyone with your idea, by your own admission. You, yourself, admit that your progress will now come from 'twitching faster and stronger'. I guess it is time to ascend these threads and make yourself known in the Form Advice board. Lets see you develop some rookies with this advice.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3641471)
You are helping no one. You are just feeding your own narcissism. The bad advices are coming from you, don't you see? If anything your advice will change their game for the worse and they might even hurt themselves trying your teachings. I feel bad knowing that some beginners might stumble upon a comment from you and try to whip their hip around forcefully and break their lower back or pull a muscle.

Also, I'm not trying to brag about throwing 300 feet when I first started. I'm saying that it proves nothing at all. With that form I maxed out sub 400 feet. There will be a plateau with every kind of form, and with a bad one you will reach it earlier. You will also put a lot more stress one your body and most certainly will miss the intended throwing line a lot. I promise you that.

I am simply advocating what Paul and Nate were teaching in the video I posted. GG is an advocate for increasing hip rotation speed. He has a video on distance tips and his #1 tip is to work on faster hip rotation.

The importance of rotating powerfully is key to distance. Knowing how and when that rotation begins is also key. Knowing the difference between strongarming and whipping the arm by the body is also key.

You cannot rotate the hips and use the body if you have the wrong mindset. The belief that rotation begins at brace is wrong. The belief that sole lateral shift creates rotation is also wrong. The danger or problem with teaching these philosophies is that it doesnt promote proper hip and core rotation. Im advocating for the mindset of the hips already starting to rotate coming into brace. At that moment you should thus feel like the core is wound up a bit at which time it can unwind or rotate powerfully. If you are at brace moment (complete weight shift) and feel no wound up energy from the twisting of the hips against the torso you are doing it wrong and will not be able to properly whip the disc through.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3641480)
This is just so absurd. You can literally read years-long threads and watch Sidewinder's advice manifest itself into better mechanics for that person. If you do so and begin implementing the lateral shift concept correctly, you will feel where the well of additional momentum can be found.

You aren't going to help anyone with your idea, by your own admission. You, yourself, admit that your progress will now come from 'twitching faster and stronger'. I guess it is time to ascend these threads and make yourself known in the Form Advice board. Lets see you develop some rookies with this advice.

In your own words, describe when hip rotation occurs and why.

seedlings 10-08-2020 02:19 PM

Nate Sextonís hips rotate after the brace foot plants.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2020/TGgt18.gif

RoDeO 10-08-2020 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3641624)
Nate Sextonís hips rotate after the brace foot plants.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-08-2020/TGgt18.gif

He begins rotation before the weight shift and strong brace. He is definitely later than most but he does begin rotating before strong brace. Strong brace is when all the weight has shifted and the front hip comes upwards. Freeze it at that point and his hips are already halfway through their rotation.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 10:25 PM

https://makeagif.com/i/NKR7HC

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:00 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/NkpM5E.gif

The rear leg and knee turn inwards and drops just before the full brace happens. This signifies hip rotation. Thus, hip rotation begins before foot brace.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3641815)
First brace, then the hips follow. Simple.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/lbi-hN.gif

Note something very carefully. The rear hip begins to turn before brace. This is why the knee turns inwards. That key moment happens before the weight shifts into full brace.

seedlings 10-08-2020 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641819)
Note something very carefully. The rear hip begins to turn before brace. This is why the knee turns inwards. That key moment happens before the weight shifts into full brace.

You are not watching the brace leg. The brace leg is on the ground before hips move. If you’re saying your timing is perfect to one frame of video, you’re lying. Edit: or you could demonstrate with a 450’ drive in slow motion?

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3641820)
You are not watching the brace leg. The brace leg is on the ground before hips move. If you’re saying your timing is perfect to one frame of video, you’re lying. Edit: or you could demonstrate with a 450’ drive in slow motion?

Brace doesn't happen at the very first contact. It happens as the weight transfers such as that "crush the can" moment of Sidewinders drill. The whole foot is down and the hip starts coming upwards. That moment right there where you see pressure on the foot and the hip coming up is the "brace", not before.

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:21 PM

Here's another of Heimberg. Again, note how his rear knee drops and turns inward. That signifies the rear hip is turning. That begins before the front foot is fully planted and the front hip coming up. Thus, again, rotation begins before brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/kmygb2.gif

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:30 PM

Here is Eagle. Note also how his rear knee drops and turns signifying the rear hip rotating. This begins before his front foot is fully planted at brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/mszk_F.gif

RoDeO 10-08-2020 11:42 PM

And here is Mcbeth. Again, not how the rear knee turns inwards just before brace. The rear hip rotation causes the rear knee to drop and turn inwards. Thus, again showing hip rotation is initiated before the front strong brace moment.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/TUW0ZC.gif

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 12:12 AM

That rotation may be what you see happening on the video, but it is not the intention or feel or focus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqZU6KoBPQ#t=7m40s



RoDeO 10-09-2020 12:13 AM

Angles are quite telling. Kevin Jones drive here shows his rear hip rotating forward before his brace. I was looking at the above photo in Sidewinders post. From the side view you can't see the rotation. From the rear you can see the rotation.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/LKfb6Q.gif

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 12:18 AM

Groundhog Day with you.

That rotation may be what you see happening on the video, but it is not the intention or feel or focus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqZU6KoBPQ#t=7m40s



RoDeO 10-09-2020 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641829)
That rotation may be what you see happening on the video, but it is not the intention or feel or focus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqZU6KoBPQ#t=7m40s



I think it's important to realize that at the brace moment you need to feel the rotation of your hips. One simply can't have the philosophy of thinking there's no rotation until strong brace and hope to throw well. Even though we don't focus on it, we can do drills to initiate that rotation- get it started before strong brace so that as the disc is getting pulled into the power pocket there is a strong kinetic rotation building to lever the disc.

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641832)
One simply can't have the philosophy of thinking there's no rotation until strong brace and hope to throw well.

Clearly you are wrong.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641834)
Clearly you are wrong.

Look at PP here. No you can't see the exact moment of strong brace not seeing the foot. But that brace can be ascertained by when the disc is pulled into the power pocket and the front hip comes upwards slightly. So, up until this strong brace moment, what have her hips been doung? Rotating.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/57yY5U.gif

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 12:43 AM

Do you know what philosophy means?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3og0IN...ks9O/giphy.gif

RoDeO 10-09-2020 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641839)

4a: the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philosophy

RoDeO 10-09-2020 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641831)
Groundhog Day with you.

That rotation may be what you see happening on the video, but it is not the intention or feel or focus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feqZU6KoBPQ#t=7m40s



Hey, I was born on Groundhogs day, what do you expect?

sidewinder22 10-09-2020 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641832)
One simply can't have the philosophy of thinking there's no rotation until strong brace and hope to throw well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641834)
Clearly you are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641840)
4a: the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/philosophy

I guess Ricky and Paige can't throw very well.

Ricky Wysocki - "It's not good form BH or FH to twist the hips around. You want more lateral shift. The hip twist is more of a followthru thing."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw-zQt5H2Dw#t=9m9s

RoDeO 10-09-2020 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641845)
I guess Ricky and Paige can't throw very well.

Ricky Wysocki - "It's not good form BH or FH to twist the hips around. You want more lateral shift. The hip twist is more of a followthru thing."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw-zQt5H2Dw#t=9m9s

Yeah, the GIF I just posted of PP, she must have really bad form twisting them hips around before follow through...

NoseDownKing 10-09-2020 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641847)
Yeah, the GIF I just posted of PP, she must have really bad form twisting them hips around before follow through...

I've taken advice from seabas22 and a bunch of others for a couple years now. I'm throwing 470'. Two years ago I was throwing 330'.

I remember seeing somewhere that Paul McBeth actually had been using seabas22's drills and said they were really good. Oh I wonder if he's good now. Probably not, because he thinks about not rotating before brace like you said is bad thinking.

https://youtu.be/4fQ2qJX1A9g
This guy doesn't twist his hips open super fast like you arr trying to do. They stay sideways after release. Terrible form eh?



Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

twistedraven 10-09-2020 02:51 AM

I agree that shifting the hips as opposed to rotating is more of a philosophy thing when it comes to the backhand drive. Trying to force rotation early leads to all kinds of shanks that travel way right, and opening up too early thus losing power.

Through experience learning the backhand, there are many things I try to emphasize that end up not being true in the actual form. Examples are: Act as if I'm leading with the HEEL of my plant foot, when in reality my plant foot is sideways and closed-- not open. Act as if I'm reaching back AWAY from my body to prevent rounding, when in reality I'm reaching straight back. Shifting/rocking the hips into the brace to keep my line straight and hips closed, when in reality I'm delaying full on rotation until after the plant and the disc has already been secured in the power pocket. Because the front brace leg is offset, there will naturally be some rotation of the hips, but the intent-- the philosophy-- of it is to shift/rock your hips rather than rotate.

RandyC 10-09-2020 03:45 AM

So purpose of the hips is to turn your shoulders or we could say that hips turn your shoulders because they do not have enough range of motion without the hips. So when rear hip rotates we should be able to observe her shoulders turning aswell if the rear leg is weighted. As in if you stand on your rear leg and rotate your rear hip, your shoulders turn correct?

Here is a pretty good view of Paul McBeth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEhxEuMgfT4

RoDeO 10-09-2020 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3641848)
I've taken advice from seabas22 and a bunch of others for a couple years now. I'm throwing 470'. Two years ago I was throwing 330'.

I remember seeing somewhere that Paul McBeth actually had been using seabas22's drills and said they were really good. Oh I wonder if he's good now. Probably not, because he thinks about not rotating before brace like you said is bad thinking.

https://youtu.be/4fQ2qJX1A9g
This guy doesn't twist his hips open super fast like you arr trying to do. They stay sideways after release. Terrible form eh?



Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

Angles are everything. Wiggins is throwing on a line offset than the teepad slightly. His rear hip begins to rotate into brace just like everyone else. By the moment of strong brace, his hips have rotated halfway of their total rotation, just like everyone else.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/seW1xv.gif

RoDeO 10-09-2020 09:22 AM

The bottom line is that you should feel a loading of the hips coming into strong brace. That loading, whether you are thinking lateral shift or rotation, is the same thing, if done correctly. It means that at the moment of strong brace, your hips should be already rotating and you should feel that load or twist on the hips which continuing is what powers the torso and shoulders into rotation.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641854)
So purpose of the hips is to turn your shoulders or we could say that hips turn your shoulders because they do not have enough range of motion without the hips. So when rear hip rotates we should be able to observe her shoulders turning aswell if the rear leg is weighted. As in if you stand on your rear leg and rotate your rear hip, your shoulders turn correct?

Here is a pretty good view of Paul McBeth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEhxEuMgfT4

When done correctly, the rotation of the hips will always lead the rotation of the shoulders. In super slow motion you will see the hips begin to rotate, then the torso, and then lastly the shoulders begin to rotate. If the shoulders rotate first it's a sign of strongarming.

RowingBoats 10-09-2020 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641890)
Angles are everything. Wiggins is throwing on a line offset than the teepad slightly. His rear hip begins to rotate into brace just like everyone else. By the moment of strong brace, his hips have rotated halfway of their total rotation, just like everyone else.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2020/seW1xv.gif

This is one of the most clear examples of the move being lateral that I have ever seen. His rear leg is almost literally smashing forward directly. The rotation is incidental to this deliberate movement. The power is absolutely NOT coming from any deliberate, 'wound up' rotation.

RoDeO 10-09-2020 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3641925)
This is one of the most clear examples of the move being lateral that I have ever seen. His rear leg is almost literally smashing forward directly. The rotation is incidental to this deliberate movement. The power is absolutely NOT coming from any deliberate, 'wound up' rotation.

Go back to the YouTube feed and watch it in the slowest speed, even frame by frame. You can literally see his hips powerfully rotating into his brace and the torso lagging behind and his body twisted around before he unwinds into release.


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