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-   -   Move to lower glide discs in winter? (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135368)

Tinkles 11-15-2019 10:56 AM

Move to lower glide discs in winter?
 
I was thinking about how the denser air creates more lift and drag on a disc and whether I should look at using something with less glide than my FDs and Wraiths in winter. Maybe replacing Wraiths with Orcs for example.

Does anyone change their bag for winter vs summer?

ejvogie 11-15-2019 11:16 AM

I'm no physicist, but it seems like you'd want MORE glide to fight the increased drag...

Jay Dub 11-15-2019 11:25 AM

I change out some discs for winter play but that's due to plastic type. Old classic DX discs gets put away and replaced. CE Spider stays inside during the winter but never because of glide.

I agree with ejvogie, I would think you'd want more glide.

Tinkles 11-15-2019 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejvogie (Post 3519606)
I'm no physicist, but it seems like you'd want MORE glide to fight the increased drag...

Also not a physicist, but my thought was that higher glide = (generally) higher drag so in cold weather, a 4 glide disc might fly closer to a warm weather 6 glide disc. I was thinking that throwing a higher glide disc in denser air would make the disc slower and more nose angle sensitive. To cut through the denser air and get similar flight to warm weather, you would want a lower glide disc, no?

Monkeypaws 11-15-2019 11:38 AM

I change up my bag, but for me it's all about grip in cold weather - out with the Champion/Opto, in with the Pro and baseline. I also go lighter because the footing tends to stink: lots of standstill throws. I agree with the others that more glide is probably welcome in such conditions.

biscoe 11-15-2019 11:40 AM

Discs will behave as if they are more overstable in colder weather. Also- flight numbers are uncalibrated nonsense.

ejvogie 11-15-2019 11:59 AM

Perhaps my understanding is flawed, but I'd put drag and glide on the opposite ends of the spectrum

ru4por 11-15-2019 01:33 PM

I don't know about glide, and honestly don't think any difference is appreciable enough to warrant much consideration. I would want more glide and less stability because of the impact of reduced run up and decreased mobility from increased clothing.

ThrowBot 11-15-2019 01:49 PM

If you REALLY care about the physics of it, going from hot to cold air (in terms of air density, and how that affects disc flight) is the same as going from high elevation to sea level. If you go from 100F to -20F, that's equivalent to moving from 2000' of elevation down to sea level.

In that perspective, temperature effects on air density are pretty negligible. 100F to -20F is a HUGE swing, whereas 2000' of elevation...heck, I've played disc golf holes that vary by hundreds of feet of elevation just going from tee to basket!

I agree with those who say that grip is more important in cold weather!

F. Howl 11-15-2019 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3519616)
Discs will behave as if they are more overstable in colder weather. Also- flight numbers are uncalibrated nonsense.

Really? My understanding is that discs are more overstable in hot weather (hot air has less density, sinse heat causes molecules to move faster and further apart). So discs behave understable in cold weather.

I think Throw, has it right.

UhhNegative 11-15-2019 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. Howl (Post 3519688)
Really? My understanding is that discs are more overstable in hot weather (hot air has less density, sinse heat causes molecules to move faster and further apart). So discs behave understable in cold weather.

I think Throw, has it right.

Regardless of the science, you should expect to lose distance in the winter. Whether the effect is from your body being cold or the disc being cold or the air being cold doesn't really matter in the end.

See this reddit post

https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/co...m_medium=web2x

Tinkles 11-15-2019 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThrowBot (Post 3519671)
If you REALLY care about the physics of it, going from hot to cold air (in terms of air density, and how that affects disc flight) is the same as going from high elevation to sea level. If you go from 100F to -20F, that's equivalent to moving from 2000' of elevation down to sea level.

In that perspective, temperature effects on air density are pretty negligible. 100F to -20F is a HUGE swing, whereas 2000' of elevation...heck, I've played disc golf holes that vary by hundreds of feet of elevation just going from tee to basket!

I agree with those who say that grip is more important in cold weather!

That's interesting to know. I was thinking more a long the lines of around a 40-50 degree difference which would be even smaller.

rocthecourse 11-15-2019 02:53 PM

I lose distance* as it gets colder so I will add some more understable discs to the bag, in grippy plastic. I would think more glide would get you more distance regardless of temperature.


*Wearing lots of layers, winter boots, cold hands, and not playing as much all add up to shorter drives, at least for me.

Tinkles 11-15-2019 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UhhNegative (Post 3519696)
Regardless of the science, you should expect to lose distance in the winter. Whether the effect is from your body being cold or the disc being cold or the air being cold doesn't really matter in the end.

See this reddit post

https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/co...m_medium=web2x

Yeah, I think most of us in general lose performance as temps approach or drop below freezing. Especially as I get older...

From that post, the elevation component seems inconsistent with the temperature and humidity. My understanding is that +Temp & +Humidity & +Elevation all = less dense air. I wonder why that post has the elevation component having a different effect on the disc stability than temp and humidity (assuming the cause of the change in stability is a change in air density).

Not to stir up another topic but does higher air density cause the center of lift on a disc to move to the back more creating the additional understability?

Would more dense air in general increase the forces on the disc and exaggerate both phases of flight making a disc more understable at high speed but more overstable at low?

Meillo 11-15-2019 03:19 PM

I think the main difference is that warm ground makes the air heat up and rise, lifting the disc with it, whereas cold ground leads to downward air flow, pushing the disc down. This is the reason I get a distance boost in early summer.


My bag doesn't change much, only white discs out and more baseline plastic.

mostlynorwegian 11-15-2019 03:32 PM

I'm more concerned with grip, and feel. Out goes the harder plastics that get super stiff.

sidewinder22 11-15-2019 04:47 PM

I notice my discs are a slightly more understable in winter.

Doofenshmirtz 11-15-2019 05:27 PM

Lower air temperature, lower humidity and lower elevations all make the air denser. Hot, high humidity days here in the South sure seem to make discs a little more overstable.

Does anyone know if colder temps tend to change the shape of the disc, perhaps decreasing diameter and increasing dome slightly?

davistd0 11-15-2019 05:53 PM

The only things that matter for winter golf:
-no white discs if you play in snow
-use ribbons if you play in deep snow (A+ for helping pace of play)
-no throwing irreplaceable discs
-thick clothing, multiple layers, and tight muscles/tendons have 5x more impact on disc flight than temperature
-from previous point, use less stable and slightly faster discs than normal to compensate
-have fun and work on the parts of your game that need practice

sidewinder22 11-15-2019 05:59 PM

Definitely makes them stiffer and more brittle. Since they are stiffer, they warp less at the hit.

BogeyNoMore 11-15-2019 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3519616)
Discs will behave as if they are more overstable in colder weather.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3519774)
I notice my discs are a slightly more understable in winter.

I have to agree with SW on this. I find discs behave more understable when it gets cold. I'm talking about a difference of 40 degrees or more.

I've never watched a disc fly on a 90+ degree day, and thought, "Wow, that disc sure acted more OS than I expected."
But I've definitely played in sub-freeing temps and thought "That turned more /earlier than I expected."


I don't seem to notice much difference in disc flight until the temps drop below freezing.
But down in the 20's discs turn more. They seem to get more "bite" in the denser air.
But I agree with what a few others have said: When it comes to winter DG, I think changing your bag up for grip, is more important than changing it up for stability. As hands get cold, champ/Z plastic tends to get slipperier than baseline, GStar, FLX, and even some Pro/X type plastic. You can always tweak release angle and other aspects of your throw to compensate for differences in stability. But it doesn't matter what you're throwing if grip is compromised.
Then again, you could swap a few discs out and achieve both.

As for altitude, when I was playing in the mountains of NC and WV, I noticed discs behave more OS.*
Discs that give me predictable turn at home weren't qetting quite as much turn in the thinner, mountain air.

*Armiller helped me track down a notable exception at Seth Burton. Forgot the exact hole # but remember it being fairly early on the back 9... had a driver turnover and sail like a kite. As I recall, there was also some griplock and headwind involved... but jeez did that disc ever stray from the intended path, and bury itself deep in the schule. :o

R-Ogre 11-15-2019 06:46 PM

It appears that anything that increases dynamic pressure:spin speed ratio (cold temperature, low altitude, headwind, and of course faster throws) tends to make discs understable.

F.Luke 11-16-2019 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3519616)
Discs will behave as if they are more overstable in colder weather. Also- flight numbers are uncalibrated nonsense.

What are you trying to imply? That a system of measurement with no standard as its basis is worthless? Lol!














*I feel like Im at a players meeting and Gawler just said something asinine.

araytx 11-16-2019 07:31 PM

I have two complete bags -- one for spring/summer/fall, and one for winter, however short it is in Texas. The difference in glide, grip, etc.

Primarily, though I have the same discs in different plastics (more "grippable) in each.

Casey 1988 11-17-2019 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkles (Post 3519599)
I was thinking about how the denser air creates more lift and drag on a disc and whether I should look at using something with less glide than my FDs and Wraiths in winter. Maybe replacing Wraiths with Orcs for example.

Does anyone change their bag for winter vs summer?

No I do not change my bag in winter but I do compensate for the increased wind In my area when I do happen to play in winter, I just use a few molds that are more OS or a more OS version of a disc like my almost flat top Star Valkyrie rather then my glow Champion, use an ESP XL over my Z Stalker. I keep those disc in year round as high wind seems to be an possible issue where I live but in true winter weather high winds seem more common then any time of the year. I keep those discs for the grip and the wind over other molds I use in non winter weather. If I loose the ESP XL that is fine I would need to, but the almost flat top Star Valkyrie I would have to replace. Also use a taller dome Champion Destroyer that is 170 grams instead of my 167 gram lower dome Champion Destroyer in the high winds that are more common in winter.

MarkDSM 11-17-2019 02:43 AM

I’m late to the party, but I want more glide in the winter time often as a play my round expecting standstill or ‘one step plant’ upshots. I lean towards minimalist, for me Meteor (vs rocs) and long fade (vs teebirds) get subbedflr shots/bagged in for the often condition factor.

wolfhaley 11-17-2019 02:55 AM

As has been said numerous times already, grip is probably the number one concern. It's one thing if it's just cold out. But if it's cold AND there's snow on the ground then champ/opto/Z plastic is awful. These are my favorite types of plastic in warm weather by far. I have pretty much zero issue with these in the rain either. But they are so slick and stiff in snow that they're practically useless for me. G star is the best in snow, otherwise I never use it. Star/gold/ESP is so much better. Also I agree that discs seem to fly more understable in the cold.

MANBURGARLAR 11-18-2019 10:26 AM

Between the soggy or icy ground depending where you live. Colder stiffer muscles / hands, I always lose distance in the winter with the poor footing and slipping going on. I usually find myself discing down and getting more understable discs out to makeup for the lack of legs I can get into the shot.

Vintage Folfer 11-18-2019 03:06 PM

How would a disc fly in a vacuum? Would it quickly drop because there's no air holding it up, or would it fly further because there's no friction? I don't mean the void of space where there's no air and no gravity, I mean: normal gravity but no air. Not saying this could or would ever be done, just considering the extreme to better understand the effects of air density on disc flight. Aerodynamics would be irrelevant of course, so what would happen?

BogeyNoMore 11-18-2019 03:27 PM

Pretty sure with no air to provide lift, assuming Earth's gravity, it will basically behave about the same as a baseball. Becomes a more typical physics 101 type of projectile motion equation.

Discs would'nt go as far in a vacuum if assuming gravity is the same.


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