Or, as said earlier, spin the hip. Despite what anyone wants to believe, the hips must spin/rotate in order to throw a disc the correct way.

Swinging the heavy hammer vs. Whipping a disc are similar but so different. You try to do both powerfully, but one needs just Brutus strength while the other is about timing and speed. Your arms are really involved in the swing of the hammer. Throwing a disc requires almost no arm power.

"I could have kept swinging that hammer all day long"

That would not be true if he was using his arms heavily in the swing, and HUB (loopghost) is not a Brutus strength type guy. The other gentleman in the video using his arms to swing the hammer can still swing it, but not nearly as efficiently as HUB.

Did I miss something? Did someone say that they hips do not rotate? I belive everyone is saying you do not spin or rotate from your rear leg into the plant.

I suggest you read this multiple times and once you finally come to conclusion that it is impossible to shift from behind by rotating from the front. Come back to these threads. The important thing for you is not to think walk backwards what you are currently doing.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=127477

Until you get this I dont think we have anything further to discuss. If you are incapable of opening your mind and not letting go of this silly spin theory, there is a perfectly valid 300ft club in facebook called spin & throw where you can feel right at home.

Thanks for the link RandyC.

I love this quote from slow plastic:

In other words for those that need something simple and easy for your brain and body to execute:


To RoDeO: please note that slowplastic describes how it "feels". All these drills are designed to help a player "feel" what the body should do. There are hundreds of ways to throw a disc far. However, there are a few basic throwing techniques that produce the best results for all body types, not just athletic body types. Once you "feel the hit" you should be able to fully comprehend that throwing far doesn't require a lot of physical effort, just a coordinated effort.

We just may be completely misunderstanding each other.

My whole point with the initiation of the hip turn is to help others understand that the hip rotation is a dynamic action that begins before weight shift. There are people trying to figure the hip rotation out but don't get it because they mentally believe it isn't initiated until after the weight shifts at the strong brace moment. Thus, they try drills trying to throw from their front leg (one leg) and initiate their hip turn with all their weight on the front leg. It's wrong, it teaches incorrect mechanics and promotes strong arming the disc.

Whether you admit ir or not, every good thrower spins their hips and throws the disc

Not sure what you are getting at. I read it.

i'll take a stab at it

movement of the hips does not necessarily mean they are rotating already. further, i think you are exaggerating how much they move/rotate before the brace. from all the gifs posted here, it seems clear to me that the rotation does not begin before the plant toe touches the ground and that the substantial portion of the rotation happens a moment later when the heel plants.

i feel like you're trying to derive principles from non-essential, incidental elements and that's why you're getting so much push back from people here who really do know better.

It's not something you feel as much as you see in video playback. Understanding how and when hip rotation initiation occurs is really critical to being able to engage the hips and torso correctly. Im not talking about just spinning the hips out of control. Im talking about that first initial turn and how from there it's a continuous smooth rotation into release. That rotation happens before strong brace. I keep mentioning "strong brace" because that is the moment when everything explodes so to speak. At the moment of strong brace is when the weight is fully shifted, the front hip is coming up, the disc is in acceleration mode and the hips better have rotated ahead of the shoulders at this point. If one gets to strong brace and no rotation from the hips have occurred, then there is no possible way the hips or torso can generate any power and it will only be all arm at that point.

So how much do the hips really turn by the moment of strong brace? From all the frame by frame video I've watched, in general, the hips will have rotated halfway through their total rotation by this point. We don't actually feel this though. It actually feels like we don't really turn the hips until strong brace. The reason being is that our eyes which is inside our head is still looking back and the shoulders are still turned backwards to some degree and it's happening so fast we assume no hip rotation has occurred to this point and then our brain triggers explosion mode and accelerates the disc into release. This delay of the upper body tricks our brains into thinking our whole body was rotating all at the same time. In reality though, our lower half was already rotating into strong brace and continued rotating into release. It's why you see in super slow motion a smooth transition of the rotating hips from just before the front foot touches down all the way through weight shift and into release. The upper body is delayed to intentionally create the rotational torque to build up the power to strongly rotate the upper body into release.

Lets assume all this nonsense is true, everyone rotates their rear hip and delay their shoulder rotation by sheer magic and get those 400-600ft distances. Why isnt it working for you and how do you know how it feels to throw 400,500,600ft?

Throwing 400-600 feet takes time. You don't just wake up one day and go from 200 to 600 feet because you lined up all the mechanics. You still have to train, build, and condition muscle groups to fire quickly and your body mechanics to flow smoothly. That takes time. And it takes even more time as you get older. I've been playing almost 4 months. Im not far off from 400 feet now. You make it sound like the average person throws 400-600 feet within the first year? What planet are you on?

In the hammer back hand throwing drill the arm isn't really whipping the hammer through. I tried to replicate the whip with the hammer and about clobbered my torso with the hammer as I tried to whip the hammer through. It only works using momentum and arming it.

It is prudent to learn from those who have taken the time and developed muscle memory. It sounds foolish for a new player to lecture advanced players in technique. Adding lecture upon lecture only exacerbates the apparent foolishness.

So you're doing it incorrectly lol. With your logic I could say, "We can walk on the ice, because I saw a leaf fall on it and the ice didn't break"

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I think it's wise to truly understand what the top players actually do, not necessarily what they think they do, and then try to duplicate those mechanics. That's all I am doing. Using that wisdom, I'm throwing great and am on a good pathway.

I tried to actually throw the hammer just like I do a disc and as I brought the hammer into my power pocket the end of the hammer swung into my torso and as I started to whip it, it only made it worse. I tried it slower several times but with the same result. It's just not meant to be thrown like you do with a disc.

There are biomechanical ideals and principles of physics that affect everyone. The top throwers are matching their throws to this. That is why you see Kevin Jones and others going through the pre-throw motions of getting on the front leg and swinging. People have form/mechanical breakdowns, mobility issues, anatomical differences, etc. That is why there is a wide range of variation. If you do not understand the ideal, then when you focus on what players actually do, how do you know you are not focusing on something that is less than ideal?

For example, you focused on Paul Oman saying he has perfect form. His long levers allow him to throw farther with less than ideal form. If you took someone who is shorter and had them throw that way, they would have a difficult time achieving similar distance.

Let's say perfect form would have someone throwing 600'. But due to an issue with mechanics, mobility, etc. they throw 500'. Without understanding what the ideal is, how do you know that what you are doing isn't copying the issue that limits their throw to 5/6th of their potential? Yes, it is what they are doing, but even 500' throwers can be doing things better.

If something doesn't work for you, that's fine, don't do it. But why is it that when something doesn't work for you or make sense to you, you label it as incorrect, even if numerous other people are using/understanding it successfully?

Or maybe the disc is not meant to be thrown like you do.

Well, you have your hammer throw mechanics. Notice the rather straight arm and momentum swing-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/p5ACMu.gif

And you have the disc golf throw mechanics. Note the different mechanics of the hips, body, arm, etc, especially the path of the arm.-

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2020/vNH4iC.gif

I tried to throw the hammer like you do a disc and the hammer about took me out because it was swinging into my torso as I brought it into the power pocket. In Sidewinders drill, there's no bringing the hammer into the power pocket.

I didn't say Oman had perfect form. I said he had as perfect kinetic chain as possible. He gets max potential from a rather slow methodical x step and backswing. Other players have to get crazy momentum x steps to do the same. Plus, we don't really know just how far Paul Oman can really throw. We do know he can throw 500 feet from one of the slowest x steps out there and he isn't using arming to do it. Lever length doesn't really account for much. Half of the top throwers are short.

I have never seen anyone so utterly obtuse about the concept of drills. Ever. I mean it. Just stop and go play, I think you have exhausted the potential of this discussion.

Shoulder down is mechanically identical. The hammer drill is designed to teach your lower body and lats the feel of leverage. Just spinning gives no leverage.
The feel of leverage throwing the hammer is the same as throwing a disc from the lats down, the only difference between the two is triceps to hands. A disc throw adds more with those levers because the muscles can add more, due to lesser weight. You like pitching mechanics; draw a free body diagram of the disc golf throw and a hammer throw, you’ll see the same exact thing lats down. People are talking to you about leverage, and you’re missing the point of the drills. Hammer drill doesn’t teach the arm as much as it teaches body weight and leverage.
I think it would be really beneficial to find out what exactly the drill is supposed to teach before writing it off as different or useless, because to the lower body and lats, throwing a hammer is 100% identical to throwing a disc.

Go back to what I said. All I said was I tried to use the mechanics of the disc throwing action to throw the hammer. The hammer throwing mechanics is different. Just a note to anyone out there who may be thinking they incorporate the same mechanics- they don't.

The ground up mechanics are literally identical. I believe you when you say that if you pick up a hammer and try to throw your way, with deliberate hip rotation starting from the rear, its going to be ****ed up. That's kind of the point everyone is making.

You missed the whole point. Never mind I guess.

Well, they are close, not identical. My point wad that you can't actually pick up a hammer and try to throw it like you do with a disc, it just doesn't work. Doing the drill to get a feeling for the legs and body might be good but just forget the whole arm action part, it's different.

I get that if you pull the hammer into the power pocket it’s gonna hit you in the chest, I’ll give you that and didn’t deny that will happen.

The main point here though is that you don’t pull the disc into the power pocket. It is brought there because of momentum created by leverage from the lower body, the ground, and gravity. Your elbow never breaks 90 degrees-in fact, many players (myself included) don’t bring it in anywhere close to 90 degrees. From the front it looks that way because of camera angles, but from a top view the tension is never let off of the triceps

I’m sure you’ve done bench press before.

When the weight is lowered, you’re not pulling it down with your lats, posterior deltoids and biceps. You’re keeping tension, and allowing the weight to lower itself. That’s what the “power pocket” is. The tension is lowered, but never released, with the triceps, and then is suddenly heightened at the hit, where the triceps extend. Your biceps are never recruited, therefore you cannot pull the disc or hammer towards you. I know it may seem silly but seriously, draw a feee body diagram of a McBeth, Garrett Gurthie, Simon Lizotte, etc etc and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

To drive the point home, you’re doing the hammer drill incorrectly-it’s supposed to allow you to get the feel of leveraging the disc.

Just like weight training. You slowly do things with large weights so you can do them quickly and more efficiently.

I was a collegiate caliber sprinter. That is the definition of needing pure speed over strength.
Even I worked out, ran drills, etc etc because they trained me for when the gun shot off.

Do you need a deadlift motion to run? No. Did it drop my times significantly because of built up strength and control? Absolutely.

That’s what drills do. They get the fundamentals down so you can know what it feels like. The hammer drill is a drill that teaches what muscles are used and helps you weed out the muscles that aren’t supposed to be used.

The disc gets pulled into the power pocket area. It either has to get pushed or pulled according to physics and we know it's not pushed. But anyways...

I’m not gonna keep discussing this because even though you mention physics you have no regard for its objective laws. I’m a mechanical engineering major switched from exercise science, am currently and have in the past been in careers where I work with natural physics laws every day, and have spent years studying human body biomechanics. Have measured throws over 500 feet flat ground and have taught I couldn’t tell you how many people in person. You’re not going to change my mind because you’re not right. If you wanna continue discussing I will happily teach you the ground up physics of the throw, and objectively how each muscle works towards projecting a disc as far as possible.I think that would be helpful for everyone in the discussion, and I am always grateful for the opportunity to help someone who is looking to improve their game. I’ve responded a number of times to your posts and each time you select one minor detail you find that to you seems contradictory and ignore the rest. So I’ll happily talk over private message but I’m not going to continue putting messages on a public forum if they’re going to continue to be ignored.

I dont mean to nitpick but the disc is held by the hand. To get from reachback into the power pocket it has to get pulled there somehow. We could debate whether it's this muscle, or body part or action, etc, but the fact is, it being the farthest thing back in the backswing, is that something, some action, pulls it into the power pocket.

If you wanna discuss that I can explain it all but I’d much rather do it over private message. I’d rather keep threads mostly on topic if possible

It's part of the kinetic sequence isn't it? I don't really care exactly what the body does to get the disc into the power pocket, it's too subjective because people have different motions in getting to the power pocket, strong brace position. It's definitely a "pull" by some part of the body though to get the disc from reachback to the power pocket position.

I’ll draw you a free body diagram tonight when I get home from work, it makes a good deal of sense if it’s laid out. It’s really tough to understand it as a whole, I like starting piece by piece, ground up. Everything muscle group loads the next one in the sequence, starting with the lower body all the way through the lats, tris, and forearm muscles into the disc.

Sounds good.

Completely missed the point.

That is also inaccurate.

Explained in my previous post.

You just said he gets max potential. Contradicting yourself. Does he get max potential or not?

You think lever length doesn't matter much?

Why is it easier to pry something with a longer bar?

Why is it easier to turn a nut/bolt with a longer wrench?

Answer: longer levers give a mechanical advantage.

If a thrower is short, they have to overcome that relative mechanical disadvantage through other means. If a thrower is taller/longer, their mechanical advantage gives them some room for error in the rest of their form. This is one reason why some people can throw far despite less than ideal form. Cleaning up that form would allow them to realize more of their potential.

He gets max potential from slow deliberate motions. Others go slow too but because they don't have as good of a kinetic chain they get way less than max potential.

I guess where the rubber meets the road is how do you stack up against Paul Oman? Can you throw 500 feet from a slow x step?

BTW, I think it's ridiculous to think anyone's mechanics aren't good when they are throwing 500+ feet and competing with the best disc golfers on the planet.