I have a 173 Neutron Fireball and a 175 Neutron Motion, both scored in the Gyro box this year. They're so close. If anything I think the Fireball is just a tick more stable, despite the numbers, but barely worth mentioning. I'm forehand dominant and throw them around 280' on average. Twice now I've put the motion right under the basket on a 300' slightly downhill basket.

I find my Cosmic Neutron Entropy more stable than my Z or ESP Zones. Different hand feel, definitely a bit deeper than the Zone, but more reliably OS, especially if I throw them with a bit of power.

About three months ago I picked up a Plasma Motion 165g, and a Plasma Fireball 169g wanting to fill in the distance slot between a Fission Photon 174g, and a Plasma Pyro 179g. There had been a second Plasma Fireball 174g, and my first impression was to pick it up instead, but that's not what I did, I decided to keep the Motion and Plasma weights together. As I begin practice field time with them, I came to realize they were to light for the way I throw with wind play with the Motion all over the place, and the Fireball just not doing well with distance and holding a wind line. The heavier Pyro was flying past the Fireball, and keeping up with the Motion, and more consistent with wind play or without on a line. I kept thinking go back and get that Fireball 174g but waited until after two weeks and it was gone. I ended up trading away the Motion and Fireball for a Plasma Envy and an R2 Nomad and those two discs are staying in the bag. The Plasma Pyro is my favorite disc to throw.

I've come to know in the past few months anything MVP/Axiom O/S or U/S best to have a disc at least in the 170's for my purposes, and for consistency. In the meantime, I'll be looking for a Plasma Motion or Fireball in the mid 170g's to fill the Photon/Pyro gap and dump the G-star Thunderbird 170g currently there if outperformed.

So far here's what I've found with wind play of 20-30 mph with gust up to at least 40 on four course visits and eight rounds. This is the start of my 4th season with these types of winds. Plasma's hold the wind good, I have Envy, Crave, Servo, Pyro, Insanity, Wave, and Orbital. Also, with R2 Nomad, Neutron and Fission Hex, Eclipse Reactor, Fission Tesla, and Neutron Virus, none of these discs have rolled on me. A struggle for Fission Waves my main drivers, Fission Photon, and Neutron Impulse/Wave/Orbital. The wind will be stronger for a few course visits in January thru March, I look forward to seeing how the disc hold up.

If anyone has experience in these types of wind in the 13 and 14 speeds, what works for you in MVP/Axiom? I only kept a Neutron Relativity it has a beautiful flight in lighter wind. I turned in a Plasma Octane, Neutron Excite, and a Neutron Catalyst for discs outside of MVP/Axiom. I would like to try and commit to MVP in those speeds since everything else in the lower speeds has helped my game.

Thanks for the opinion on fireball/ motion...

FWIW which ain't much, I'd be looking at the mayhem. It seems to have a more generous margin of error on an S flight. If you put too much anny on it it won't dive like an octane or catalyst. It's a more linear S if that makes sense.

It's way out of my speed range but I can tell from the way it can be "cheated" to fly right that it should be solid. I will defer to a bigger arm though :D

Neither really make sense, but the first one is closer. You need to take both turn and fade into account for the actual stability. And honestly, the turn is more indicative than the fade for the disc's actual flight.

A 5/5/0/2 disc would be stable.

A 5/5/-2/2 disc would be understable, even though it comes back to center.

A 5/5/0/3 disc would be overstable.

A 5/5/0/1 disc would be neutral, even though it technically fades, it's not really a stable or overstable disc.

I don't disagree with you on this.

But the point also missed.
The whole thing is dumb on how we describe it.

Because it's eye of the beholder far to much on description.

While I am not going to argue your logic, I generally feel that third number (assuming its accurate) generally dictates the stability of a disc. Your two examples above are both stable in that generally they should take power well without turning. In general, I would say there aren’t a lot of truly overstable discs out on the market. A Justice or a Splice I would say are overstable. Things like Teebirds and Zones are stable. Most discs with a negative turn number are understable to some degree.

I see your point on overstable. I usually put that around the 0/3 mark, but it could be argued more towards 0/4. Discs like the Resistor are consisdered overstable and are 0/3.5. I guess I just round down instead of up in those situations.

Yeah when people ask about the most stable envy... I always ask if it's turn resistance (HSS) or fade (LSS) that they are looking for.

I can see why people would call the FB/Motion debate two different ways, for me it's the ability to extend the flight (third #) that's most relevant but I gotta say that hard fading skip is also something I want out of that slot.

I think there is a need for consistency in describing it, but I don't think it's dumb. I see it kind of like disc speed For the most part, both flight numbers, and disc speed has been set as arbitrary numbers by the manufacturers.

In general, most manufacturers have agreed to make the flight numbers for speed based on rim width, and, in general, set putters, mids, fairways, and distance drivers at certain speed ranges (1-3, 4-5, 6-8, 9+ respectively). It's when the manufacturers go off of these numbers, or some stupid pro calls a 9 speed a fairway instead of a distance driver, that throws everyone off. New people to the sport might hear that pro call a 9 speed a fairway, and suddenly a new trend emerges, when said pro's own company still calls all 9 speeds distance drivers.

At the same token for the most part, we all pretty much know what a disc is going to fly like when we see numbers 9/5/0/1 on a disc. Most manufacturers probably call that a neutral distance driver. Then there's that one really stupid manufacturer that calls it a neutral fairway driver, but pretty much none of them are going to call it understable or overstable.

The problem is, much like with the confusion with 9 speeds, when a disc is in that neutral range, some manufacturers might consider that "stable", while some consider it "neutral". All the other sides are pretty well agreed on. We just need the manufacturers to clearly set the tone, like they for the most part did with speed. (except for the 1-2 manufacturers who have bucked the trend for speed and should be boycotted until they shape up).

I like to lump things into five categories.

Putters
Midranges
Fairway drivers
Control drivers
Distance drivers

There are obviously discs that kind of overlap categories.

Back in the day I would say those 9 and 10 speed discs were definitely distance drivers but when they started coming out with the really wide rimmed stuff I think those became the new distance drivers effectively creating a control driver spot for all of the 9 and 10 speed stuff.