Maybe we will just disagree. To set a standard now, that is not required, I don't see how it ever becomes required. There will always be a large number of courses that can and never will be able to be compliant. We take them out of the ground? Refuse to sanction any event or league there? In addition to maintenance of several courses, my club helps support, we now need to start fundraising to put in or replace pads?

I get the concept of standardization, but the practical, pragmatic, logistic application here is not realistic....again, IMO.

Playing devil's advocate....I agree with everything you've said....but

Could this be done in a more realistic manner as a requirement to host a NT or DGPT event? Basically, fix it just for the pros? Again I understand the costs involved are prohibitive, but is this slightly more practical to ask for?

The real question is "why?"
You only throw 18 tee shots a round. If you threw all birdies at a par 3 course it's still only 50% of your shots being "standardized" at the most.
Golf isn't about your ability to throw the correct shot from the same spot every time, it's about the ability to throw the correct shot when things aren't going your way.

And it could be argued that these type courses should have upgraded tee pads.

But, that is a pretty big expense for 100 players to throw three shot off of each pad. 300 throws to justify the expense? Not to mention, are those 300 throws enough to dictate pads for the other 362 days of play? In most cases, probably yes. You might lose a couple DGPT events though. I am not sure that Toboggan can have cement or permanent tees, due to park restrictions on the land.

Yes, this is a much more reasonable ask though. The DGPT setting standards, for bids, seems reasonable. I assume the PDGA has basic thresholds, that would have to be met, for Worlds.

Stuff like this is where he shows his n00b side.

In most instances relationships with the city, parks department, whoever needs to be massaged pretty good for things to happen. You might have a good relationship but have to fund projects on your own, others might be lucky and the entity is on board with budgeting money to their courses, and others might he simply fighting uphill to keep the course in the ground. On top of all that the process for getting changes made will vary greatly from place to place.

Somebody who has been involved on the local level knows this. In theory standardization is a great idea, pretty much impossible to implement. The trade off might be certain courses where for whatever reason they can’t upgrade to the new standard and get dropped from DGPT and you’re adding other courses that might not be as great but have the required amenities.

In reality statements like that are taking a giant dump on the people who grind it out to have what they do.

I think the only way to come remotely close to standardizing tees for DGPT events would be to use a portable wooden platform with a turf surface. You’d essentially lug those around with all the other DGPT equipment. You’d have to position them slightly different than the permanent ones obviously.

The more important take from Showmez Season 2 Episode 2 isn't about the length of the tee pad (although that is important)...Uli was talking about James Conrad (guest) at one course where the end of the tee pad had a 5 foot or so drop off. James made his run up and vanished off the edge...they were so worried about him that they didn't see his disc almost go in. Spoiler, he wasn't hurt.

I think disc golf needs some rules for the tee pads just to keep players from injury. Yes, you can start further back so your follow through isn't off the end of the tee pad....but having a safe follow through area would be much wiser.

Or just do like the rest of us and throw a standstill if you’re worried about getting hurt bc of teepad conditions.

Is there no official recommended tee size/shape for tournament play? Just having official guidance would be a good place to start.

I do believe the rule is called common sense.

I swear, I will never understand running off the end of the pad. I see it all the time. Why the heck don't you start and plan your run up, to end a foot of so before the end of the pad. Is the extra foot a make or break distance? I am not talking about guys with Conrad run ups, they just try to plan the end of their throw at the end of the pad. :doh:

Unfortunately, common sense doesn't apply in lawsuits. I foresee the day when someone hurts themselves on a tee pad and sues the course and/or the tournament sponsor.

Then we will see rules covering tee pads. Just like we have other rules in the non-disc golf world where common sense was ignored (remember the spilt McDonald's coffee and the lawsuit from that. Now cups have to say the contents may be hot).

You run up on a tee pad you take all responsibility. Someone might try to sue but that would never work, imo.

You buy a cup of hot coffee, you take all responsibility - or should - but the lawsuit was created and won.

You have a hair dryer and bathtub, you take all responsibility, but there is a safety warning to not use a hair dryer in the bathtub...

Lots of common sense things that ended up being done anyways, leading to a lawsuit.

We may laugh at people having lack of common sense....but, there are warnings on almost everything and it's not because the companies thought - oh, someone might try this - nope, it's because someone DID try it and sued.

Anyone can file a lawsuit about anything. Doesn't mean it has merit.

Standardization limits innovation.

You should read up on that coffee lawsuit (or the many that followed it), because it isn't actually about customer responsibility at all. If you actually read up on the hot coffee issue, you'll find out that many franchises super-heat (i.e. they use pressure to get the temperature of the liquid hotter than would normally be possible without it boiling) their coffee. This is not something that people are really familiar with, and is actually extremely dangerous, causing near-immediate third-degree burns if it touches you. The reason the coffee lawsuits have been successful (and many have) is that the companies involved have been unable (in courts of law) to explain *why* super-heating their coffee is necessary, despite the significantly-increased risks the process incurs (the short version is they do it to make the coffee preserve longer). If you want to read a horror story, go read up on the original case, and the injuries the victim sustained. They're not your run-of-the-mill burns.. we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills, permanent life-altering injuries, etc.

On the actual topic at hand, as is described above, the big questions revolve around negligence. i.e. Does a property owner know that a tee pad is potentially unsafe?

^^Yeah, the coffee lawsuit excuse is used by people who have not read the whole story.

All people want to use from that story is hot coffee and lawsuit.

Brodie's entire Twitter feed is absolutely cringeworthy. I feel bad for him while i'm reading it. He doesn't actually think people are going to listen to what he is saying and implement changes immediately right? How do real disc golfers align with a guy who joins the sport and does nothing but tries to change every ****ing aspect of it and demand attention......Another thing he does constantly is comparing disc golf to ball golf, like the only thing all players want in the world is to mirror the PGA. He needs to STOP thinking he is the only person in disc golf with any experience in professional ball golf.

This guy is so far out of touch with reality from those of us who weren't spoon-fed filet mignon from day 1. He plays a TON of private courses in texas and then walks around telling the rest of the sport via Twitter how we should change based on what he has experienced. Holy narcissistic personality batman.

Not to mention the first parks department this is brought up to:

So you’re saying this tee pad in a wooded area is going to be busted up and removed, surrounding trees will be cut down, so a larger concrete tee pad can be installed because pros demand it?

Lolololololol

I mean, that’s Twitter in a nutshell. There’s a lot of good stuff on there but I bailed a few days ago. Just wasn’t worth it.

I'm not a lawyer buuuuuttttt...

One objection I've heard about standardizing teepads and having the PDGA establish rules about tee pads in the name of safety opens the PDGA to litigation. So if you have a DGPT event at a course where a tee pad is 3" too short or is pitched at 1% steeper than allowed and the PDGA allows the event to run and a player gets hurt on the tee shot. Who is liable? That'll be the PDGA for being negligent in checking the pads to make sure they are compliant. And then what if the PDGA investigates a particular course tees and finds a few out of spec? What happens to the event? Cancel it? I donno, having the PDGA generate tee pad standards if not done VERY carefully sounds like opening a gigantic can of worms.

But like I said I am no lawyer....

-Dave

I have heard it since mid 2000's when by that time with the popularity why couldn't there be standards National Tour for temp and for permeant courses. Now I mean in what the minimum materials and quality are for the DGPT and Majors in how these should be, I mean we could get some sort of stiff plywood that has been coated with plastic-dip stuff and let dry for complete temp like Toboggan where it is just set on the ground (sorry I forgot those style of course), then for others just make sure the tee pad in concrete, and fixed together paver or same for brick could be in good working order for the DGPT as a minimum.

It sucks seeing places where the players tee off and places like USDGC a Major tournament sponsored by Innova having crappy tee areas where some of the pro players have gotten injured, work with the University to have good places to tee off, it would look good for the university to be this way to attract the disc golf minded who are looking to form a good team at said school, however knowing the course is not quite the same as when USDGC is in town for the week in middle of summer.

Sorry for off topic thought. Speaking of USDGC and other places, I think in the near future the Disc Golf sport will have an actual Collage tour even if some events can't be PDGA approved or end up having to be XT before the tier due to non standard baskets. I mean 80% to 90% of Universities on up have a Course and if not a local course is not too far away, about a mile at most if not almost on campus as that is how the local course gets traction. The only problem is Prizes after but maybe that can be fixed with a special Colligate waiver or just not charging as much for entrance as most PDGA events so winners would get like under $100, I don't think from single events Colligate/University people can get more then $75 or $100 in prize stuff, I forget the rules.

Before setting up a statistical analysis you need to know what it is you're trying to achieve. Is it to allow the maximum number of players from all levels to run up and throw from the teepad? 90%? Only the pros? I feel a good starting point is something more qualitative like: Is it aesthetic? Does it seem in proportion? Is it safe for a 'typical'/average run up? Are you incentivized to follow through over the end of the pad risking injury?

I think you're disagreeing with something I've not said. We mostly agree that it would be nice to have some standardisation/guidance, and can it please not cost any time or money.
Maybe it never becomes required. As I was saying earlier I doubt it becomes a 'requirement' except for high level events, and even then it could perhaps be a requirement that gets waived in certain circumstances. I think there's value in having a suggested teepad size and material. That provides an anchor when discussing with parks too:
Park: "What size pads are you going to put in?"
Club: "Uh, dunno, how big can we go?"
Park: "3' square?"
vs
Club: "Oh wait, the PDGA recommends this size; m' by n'"
Park: "Oh that doesn't work for us, can we make it a little smaller"
Club: "Sure, we think a m' by n-2' would work well, do you think that is feasible" / "If we want to host a DGPT event someday we need them this size, else our chances are much smaller"
...

Do they though? Has anyone heard of them? I would envision any initial guideline would include the vast majority of teepads on the vast majority of tournament courses. Counter to the baskets argument there is no current standard I'm aware of that needs replacing. Also, some teepads could probably be adjusted rather than completely relaid.

Yes, as I mentioned some guidance on the state of any follow through area would be welcome too. If you don't you're asking professionals to make a risk/reward decision at certain teepads where what they're risking is their health and young men aren't very good at that calculation.

Exactly, by this time there should at least be some sort of recommendation.

Without standardisation how do you define innovation? So really standardisation enables innovation, otherwise it's just a.n.other teepad.

Do you want to be a course for elite play or not? You want a municipal course for leagues and B+C tiers? Great let's not damage the trees. You're a longstanding, well loved, highly-praised course? PDGA/DGPT will derogate the requirements for your tournament because there's value in retaining the best in class.

It's an interesting thought, I too am not a lawyer, though I work in insurance and insurance may be available to cover that sort of eventuality, and though, yes, that is more cost, it is something that should already be in place. Since teepads can certainly shift in the ground having a requirement about being level does seem like it would be impossible to both police and implement consistently.

The tee pad thing isn't important to me at wild, but I do kind of crack up that we have the best disc golfers in the world at an event on the premier tour and they might have to hold up on their tee shot as some kids push their bikes across the designated tee pad or some lady rollerskates past.

Twitter reality today is what happens when most of the adults under 50 in your population aren't spending their time on lucrative careers, raising families, homemaking and community building and engagement.

When you have entire generations (millennials and now Gen Z) working low grade service jobs, unmarried, childless and atomized from the greater community, this is the end result.

This is just the beginning, I expect to see a continual societal decline.

I've never been more engaged with and aware of social justice movements around the world as I was when I was on twitter.

I've also never been more distracted throughout my day by dumb bull****.

Twitter seems like a great activity should I decide I need to be angry or fearful every waking moment. I don't go there, and when someone points me to a tweet and wants me to read (or view) it, I ask them to just paraphrase it.

Not really in a formal fashion. We check out every course being proposed, and if we think there's a deal-breaker on any of the courses, we either pass on the bid or insist that they be fixed.

Maybe the DGPT could purchase 18 of these, in custom tee pad sizes and place them over existing tee pads. Not that expensive, could haul them from event to event. Could take care of any grip/safety issues. Not sure if they could be used as stand alone portable tee pads. :confused:

https://www.rubbercal.com/rubber-mat...inage-mat.html

https://www.rubbercal.com/images_ite...ion3_Large.jpg

Does that mean someone from the PDGA physically visits the site and makes an individual judgement about whether things are deal-breakers or not? Obviously a benefit to that approach is the ability to flex unspoken requirements given local conditions and experience etc. but there are some cons too.
Reading between the lines there (which may be erroneous, so please correct me), do bids get passed on without specific feedback as to why? Or is it the thought that "there's so much wrong here it would be unfair to ask for remedies"?

Just shows disc golf isn't a well known sport. People know to not walk across a football field, soccer field, baseball field, ball golf course. But I have seen people with a tent set up inside the island green at Watson Lake, Arizona. I have seen people laying on the grass next to a basket, just enjoying the sun, at Fountain Hills, Arizona. I have seen people just walking across the fairways, oblivious to anything around them, at Vista del Camino, Arizona (yes, I'm from Arizona so that's what I'm familiar with....I'm sure this all happens elsewhere also).

Funnily enough they could potentially do that if there were minimum size requirements for teepads. Otherwise, they might cause a greater trip hazard than they alleviate. Alternatively, without standards they'd be buying a custom set for every course. in which case why not make them permanent additions rather than portable.

yeah can confirm up in mn too

I will add to my comment about people not walking across the fields of other sports....most other sports do have a well-defined playing area and they are usually fenced off. Disc golf is commonly in public parks and not fenced off. And compared to ball golf, which normally isn't fenced off either, disc golf courses don't look like anything different than the rest of the park.

The part that drives me nuts is Fountain Hills.....okay, you are chilling out in the fairway because you don't know it is a fairway, but, dang, the people who sit/lay right next to the basket. I mean...think about it...oh look here's a metal object with chains and a number...let's sit right next to it.

It's the designated getting in the way area!

When we hosted a Major (2019 USWDGC) there was a site visit involved. Pretty sure we had already gotten the event at that point. I am certain that the PDGA is not visiting all the applicants in advance of approving one. Pretty much anywhere that is going to get approved for a Major already has a proven track record I would think.

During the bid process, no, we do not visit each site. We'll check out photos, watch videos from previous tournaments, ask questions to local or touring players, and send several followups to the TD who placed the bid. This could include items such as "I see there are a few busted tee pads on your course. Can you commit to replacing those before the event?" or "This course might need a couple of modifications to host these players, do you have the ability to change fairways/basket positions/etc?" After awarding the bid, we'll perform a site visit to button up any remaining details.

Your second question is worthy of a novel by itself. We treat all bids with respect and professionalism, but at the end of the day, we only award one winner. Sometimes there are several extremely high quality bids, and the best we can say is "Yours was fantastic, but those other guys were just a little bit better." Most of the time I think the shortcomings are spelled out in the Q&A back-and-forth. If we have to ask you what course you're going to be using, that's a hint that maybe next time you should include some information on your courses. If we have to ask "do you think that this 4500' course provides sufficient challenge to the MPO field?" then maybe you should build a harder course.

But also, like Biscoe said, most of the places that bid on major tournaments already have a proven track record. They are courses that we have seen for years and TDs that we have known for years. The people who are serious about bidding are also serious about their courses.

Exactly. In the end I decided the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.

has nothing to do with well known, all the sports you mentioned are held on private land and/or stadiums, frolf is in public parks for the most part.

private courses and clubs that are able to work with parks to shut down casual traffic don't have this issue

I do think that course in public use areas could/should do a better job of signage warning people of potential hazards. Yes, baskets look like obvious things to be leary about to us, but to the oblivious, they are absolutely none the wiser.

My home course plays thru a big city park area, and even tho it's among the more popular courses around, no one knows what the baskets are or where to be on the lookout for discs. They can't recognize a "fairway".

My opinions on that, anyways.