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-   -   Disc On or Under Bridge? (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73202)

jenb 09-26-2012 10:06 PM

Disc On or Under Bridge?
 
If a disc is dry under a bridge, is it considered below the playing surface, such that the player gets to play from the bridge?

If not, then what if it is on the bridge over dry land? Is the disc considered above the playing surface such that it must be relocated to the ground below the bridge? If more than 2 meters, and 2 meter rule is in effect, does it apply in this case?

If yes to the first question, then what if the disc is wet under the bridge? Still get to move it to the bridge? Penalty?

DavidSauls 09-26-2012 10:27 PM

I'm pretty sure you can have two playing surfaces on different levels. Under the bridge on land, over the bridge over land, you play the disc where it lies.

The question is what to do with the disc on the bridge, over water (assuming the water is O.B.). I think it depends on how the T.D. has designated O.B.

I think.

jenb 09-26-2012 10:46 PM

From the Q&A:

Quote:

QA2: Bridge Over OB

Q: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land?

A: A bridge is an example where one playing surface is vertically stacked above another playing surface. Each playing surface is treated independently. The bridge is in-bounds unless the TD has explicitly declared it to be OB, regardless of whether a playing surface above or below it is OB. If the two-meter rule is in use, it does not apply because your disc is on, not above, the playing surface. You mark your lie on the bridge, and there is no penalty.

Applicable Rules: 803.09 Out-of-Bounds; 800 Definitions (Playing Surface)
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...a0WSynA8OW-rtX

Martin Dewgarita 09-26-2012 11:07 PM

In the final 9 of a B tier I saw an open player land under a picnic table seat, he took his lie on top of the bench seat and drained a 50 footer from there. Is this a legal interpretation of that?

Cgkdisc 09-27-2012 12:13 AM

No, by default. But TD can specify that discs that land on picnic tables and benches that are sturdy enough to support players can optionally be marked and played on them. But a disc on the ground under them cannot be brought upward and played from that surface. Discs landing on them can only be marked on the ground under them.

jenb 09-27-2012 07:34 AM

If a disc under a bridge is not an example of "disc below the playing surface," then when would it ever apply?

krupicka 09-27-2012 07:38 AM

Drainage tubes is one that has occurred in the past.

Cgkdisc 09-27-2012 08:42 AM

In addition to dealing with discs typically in sidehill drain pipes and animal dens that weren't designated OB, "disc below playing surface" rule is for dealing with discs in small holes, pits or crevices where the player can't fit, get down to it or get in position to take a legal stance.

ERicJ 09-28-2012 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenb (Post 1625514)
If a disc under a bridge is not an example of "disc below the playing surface," then when would it ever apply?

During the past Summers' droughts Houston has had a couple courses where the ground has been so dry it cracks open enough to swallow up discs.

Razor 09-28-2012 02:36 PM

Quote:

During the past Summers' droughts Houston has had a couple courses where the ground has been so dry it cracks open enough to swallow up discs.
Daaaaammmmmn

foo_g 09-28-2012 02:46 PM

There's a culvert in play on one of the holes (17?) at Rand Park in Keokuk, IA.
If your disc goes in, you are required to throw out of it.

JeremyKShort 09-28-2012 03:00 PM

What if your disc is under the bridge on dry ground, but not enough clearance to take a legal stance? Do you just move back and take relief to the side of the brifge opposite the basket?

1978 09-28-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc (Post 1625386)
No, by default. But TD can specify that discs that land on picnic tables and benches that are sturdy enough to support players can optionally be marked and played on them. But a disc on the ground under them cannot be brought upward and played from that surface. Discs landing on them can only be marked on the ground under them.

I had a disc in a pipe in World Mixed Doubles and Chuck made me stick my foot down the pipe and play from there instead of playing from the grass over the pipe directly above my disc. What a jerk. There could have been snakes, homeless people, or strange clown spiders. "We all float down here."


Hornets nest #7 in this picture on the right middle of the right side fairway; between the first 2 tree shadows. That pipe.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course....jpg?rand=8954

1978 09-28-2012 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERicJ (Post 1627059)
During the past Summers' droughts Houston has had a couple courses where the ground has been so dry it cracks open enough to swallow up discs.

You see that a lot at some of the newer parks where they built up fields to level with fill dirt... the sides crack and erode...we had 2' deep cracks and channels at Eastway and RL Smith on some of the fairways where water eroded or flowed through the ground under the surface...

Cgkdisc 09-28-2012 03:31 PM

Your disc was sitting exposed to the sky in the half pipe as I recall with no ground above it. I believe they later covered the pipe before singles started. Even if it was partway in the pipe, you don't get relief on the ground above the pipe IF you can still mark and take a legal stance (which you were able to do). It's similar to when your disc is almost against a tree on the basket side. You must take a stance there if you can and only get solid object relief behind the tree if you physically can't take a legal stance.

araytx 10-04-2012 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenb (Post 1625299)

Jennifer:

See this crazy sequence on the thread below, which, I must confess, I got too passionate about.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...ad.php?t=53670

1978 10-04-2012 08:04 AM

My story sounded better Chuck.

pablo.diablo 10-17-2012 11:20 AM

What if my disc rolls in front of a huge fallen tree, and there is no place to stand within 30cm of the disc unless you are standing atop the fallen tree?

Can I throw from atop the tree since it's immediately behind my lie within 30cm?

krupicka 10-17-2012 11:39 AM

A fallen tree is generally not considered a playing surface. So No. Rule 803.04 covers this
Quote:

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

pauldst 10-17-2012 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc (Post 1625386)
No, by default. But TD can specify that discs that land on picnic tables and benches that are sturdy enough to support players can optionally be marked and played on them. But a disc on the ground under them cannot be brought upward and played from that surface. Discs landing on them can only be marked on the ground under them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyKShort (Post 1627249)
What if your disc is under the bridge on dry ground, but not enough clearance to take a legal stance? Do you just move back and take relief to the side of the brifge opposite the basket?

It would seem to me that taking stance above, if possible. would be the most reasonable and logical extension of the rule. Unless TD specifically says otherwise.

c_a_miller 10-18-2012 08:04 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoCyiDiJJdE

Here is a video about someone shooting under a bridge that is dry, so I am guessing if you can take a legal stance then you play where is lies.

The tee is about 200' to the right of the frame.

the_pwnerator 10-22-2012 09:19 PM

I play OB as it was intended. If there is normally water there, I will take OB. It only helps my game in the long run.

kerplunk 04-24-2013 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenb (Post 1625243)
If a disc is dry under a bridge, is it considered below the playing surface, such that the player gets to play from the bridge?

If not, then what if it is on the bridge over dry land? Is the disc considered above the playing surface such that it must be relocated to the ground below the bridge? If more than 2 meters, and 2 meter rule is in effect, does it apply in this case?

If yes to the first question, then what if the disc is wet under the bridge? Still get to move it to the bridge? Penalty?

I was going to post a very similar question, good thing I searched first so I didn't get Prerubed.

By my interpretation, if the TD specified bridges as NOT a playing surface, and the 2 meter rule is in effect, a disc that comes to rest on a bridge >2 m above the ground below is relocated to under the bridge and the player is given an extra stroke. Talk about adding insult to injury, or maybe just injury to injury.

Jen, I think this is part of what you were asking in your original post. I like the way you think- you are a lawyer, correct?

Greatzky 05-06-2013 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc (Post 1625556)
In addition to dealing with discs typically in sidehill drain pipes and animal dens that weren't designated OB, "disc below playing surface" rule is for dealing with discs in small holes, pits or crevices where the player can't fit, get down to it or get in position to take a legal stance.

all these rules would make more sense if the PDGA would rewrite the definition of "Playing Surface" in the current manual.
The current definition is this: "A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken."
The wording of this definition requires that a surface has to meet both criteria to be a playing surface. It must: A) be capable of supporting a player, and B) the player must be able to take a reasonable stance.
That puts many many lies/surfaces out of the realm of playing surface. It also makes lots of lies/surfaces possible to be considered a playing surface, although you have already argued with me that they aren't in other posts not on here.

You said,in this thread, that a disc landing on top of a picnic table is to be played under it. By the current definition of PS the table is a playing surface and since the disc landed on that PS you can not change your PS. The PS that the disc lands on establishes the PS for your lie which you told me.

I would like to see the definition of Playing Surface changed for next year's manual so that the rules that this definition applies to can be interpreted correctly. I don't have a problem with the rules, but they are hard to enforce when the definitions for the words used in them can change the way the rules are supposed to be enforced.

Cgkdisc 05-06-2013 09:49 AM

Hard to know when the next rules update will be written. Normal cycle is 3 years.

Greatzky 05-06-2013 10:58 AM

gotcha. Who can I talk to about amending the definition for the next update at least?

Like I said I love the rules and they are sound, but the definition creates a bit of a problem/contradiction.

krupicka 05-06-2013 11:25 AM

There is a Rules Committee link on the PDGA contact page. Use that.


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