Another illustration for the DG swing would be to get into a comfortable athletic stance, lift your lead leg off of the ground, then, rotate your hips around the lead leg while it is off the ground. This is demonstrates how simple it is to rotate the hips before planting that lead leg. Wait- I mean how impossible it is.

Lol, I'm glad you edited this because I was seriously stretching my brain to understand.

As I've said several times before. It is not the intention though, is it?

"This is the FEEL that you want to cultivate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=4m15s

Please show me these drills you speak of. Looks like you created your own drill, the Topsy Turvey Drill.

The debate is whether the hips rotate before or after brace isnt it? Just because the toe or part of the foot is touching ground doesn't mean they are bracing. There is a transition phase of weight going from rear to front and it is smooth and dynamic. The hips need to be rotating into strong brace. The power acceleration phase doesn't happen until that strong brace because your core muscles need something to brace against. At that moment where strong brace occurs the disc should either be in the power pocket position or almost in that position from reachback. Also at that moment you should have maximum hip to shoulder separation angles. That is the load that powerfully unwind the upper body or pulls it through into release. If you didn't start turning the hios until strong brace there is or can be no lag which provides the necessary power. Why? Because the hips continue to rotate all the way through weight transition. If one were to delay that until strong brace there is no lag time because the upper body starts to turn open at that point.

Regardless of how ridiculous I looked (it wasn't a drill BTW) the whole point was to see if driving laterally created hip rotation. Who cares what my upper body was or wasnt doing, the hips weren't rotating. You of all people knows that you don't get hip rotation just from moving laterally.

Whether it's intention or not, the fact is that the hips start to rotate just before brace not after brace.

It did create hip rotation even though you drove more upward than lateral. You are using all your might trying to resist that hip rotation as your arms counter the rotation, just like walking, instead of committing to the swing.

Your rear femur/knee starts pointed away from target and ends up pointed at camera. Pelvis is closed taking off rear leg and open landing on front leg.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1603344764

"This study shows that body height, body weight, hand length and arm span positively influence to BTV(Ball Throwing Velocity) during the 3-step running throw in team handball."
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1118741.pdf

I wasn't resisting no rotation. It's impossible to resist something that isn't present. I intentionally didn't try to initiate hip rotation in my shift to see if coming into the brace were to cause a rotation. None was present at all. I did it again and same result

https://youtu.be/ZwaFNtjvOtE

Still rotating.

Umm....no.

Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

It isn't clear that you know what bracing is. Anyone wanna sort this out?

From what I have seen, your theory of sequencing is supported by your opinion and subjective conclusions from observations you made.

The other theory is supported by data from biomechanics researchers and technology that measures body positions and movement in real time. Also people who either throw 500'+ and/or have coached people to throw better and/or have relevant experience/knowledge seem to disagree regularly with what you say.

If you can point to research, electronic measurement, and/or some other independent sources to support your position, that would be helpful.

I'm not 100% saying that you are wrong, just that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

I don´t think anyone has said that there is no rotation in your hips. It is a dynamic movement. What has been said is that you do not rotate from your rear leg it is a completely different animal. You are advocating rotation of the rear leg as a power source and that is not how you throw nor create power. The rotator muscles in your hip are small and weak compared to abduction adduction which uses glutes and hamstrings.

When did he say that discgolfers don't rotate? Have you listened to anything in the past month I swear to god

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Bracing is when your lead foot braces your weight. There is a strong brace moment when all of your weight has maximum pressure under your foot. Some players have a rather abrupt strong brace like Paige Pierce where you see more pressure and leg straightening and thus less lateral weight follow through and others more smooth and and less abrupt where there is less pressure and a bent leg and more lateral weight follow through like Paul Mcbeth.

Look at the video evidence. Video don't lie. I wished I knew how to capture a stillframe from video be cause I could then post pictures of top pros all in that same position of when their foot braces in that strong brace (where all the weight is firmly on the lead leg) and their hips have all substantially turned towards open and the shoulders are still facing rearward.

Whichever muscle groups are involved is a topic for discussion on its own. The important part is that the rotation of the hips begin just before the brace. This is important because if a player is led to believe that no rotation at all happens until brace then they have troubles learning how to rotate and get the hips involved and the right sequencing invloved. This was simply proven by your one leg throw. In that throw your hip never leads rotation like it should. It's also the reason why you can't balance solely on your front leg and swing a bat with power. The hip rotation is what leads the rotation and it must be initiated before the weight shift occurs.

Rodeo, I’m gonna put this as politely as I can.

You’re incorrect in your assessment of the throw.
I posted the free body diagram and written up assessment of the throw and it was completely ignored.
Nobody is “staying with you”, nobody is waiting to see your idea or drill that’s going to radically change perspectives of the throw.
We aren’t being arrogant, we aren’t being snobby. Any time we’re presented with information and evidence that points contrary to our beliefs we are the first to embrace it.
If you want to discuss the throw I will happily direct message you and am open to hearing every bit of the theory you have of biomechanics. In fact I’ll even FaceTime you if you so like. But please, for the sake of this entire sub forum. Look at the evidence and look at the physics and try to reason with the countless people who have selflessly tried to point you in the right direction.
-bsammons

So you're saying bracing has to do with weight? I was under the impression that bracing has to do with momentum. Anyone else care to speak to this?

Also I still think that "strong brace" is a strange construct. You hear people say "brace yourself," not "strong brace yourself." You hear "brace for impact," not "strong brace for impact."

Not sure a still frame would help since it isn't clear whether you were able to make a GIF that stopped at the correct point.

The nanoseconds between the brace and the strong brace are literally the most important part of proper form for those who can throw over 500’.


Sarcasm

This is getting quite tiresome, you cannot produce a decent throw using your method and it literally shows in your own effort to throw the disc. You ignore everything that you cannot answer and your only argument is "It must be like this because I am unable to do it."

Since we are ignoring all biomechanics, lets discuss just raw distance. Why is it that I am able to throw as far as you from a one leg with a putter when you are using so-called correct kinetic sequence and a high-speed driver?

I just don't understand. There seems to be some deliberate line in the sand you have drawn, and simply want to do battle here. Judging by other responses, you seem to evoke the same reactions pretty often, but this thread just keeps going, and going...and I think I know why.

You clearly do not believe it, but there are a lot of people here who understand exactly how you are thinking and swinging, because that is something they also did. There is a certain built in sympathy learning this particular swing, because, oddly enough, as complex as all of this sounds when you start...retrospectively, this concept is so absurdly simple. Once you start to implement the concept of building lateral momentum, bracing and extending the lead knee to crush the hit, a whole lot of clicks go off. Suddenly you have an actual path forward with all of this. Finding ways to get your body to generate more lateral momentum to use at the end is actually quite natural feeling. At least this is how it has all felt to me.

I really just urge you to come on out of Plato's cave. Stop watching slow motion videos on the cave wall to attempt to back up a preconceived notion. Come out of the cave and start moving your actual body around with an open mind, and you might be a bit surprised.

He's going to tell you that you have developed the muscles to throw far.

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Can everyone just stop posting in this thread? Here's the big picture of what's happening: Rodeo is spouting nonsense no one believes and is unimportant anyway, everyone is actually trying to explain how a good throw works, Rodeo is not listening. This isn't productive or useful for anyone.

I doubt you can throw a putter balanced on one leg as far as I can throw a driver from two legs.

Are you saying that he is not in balance?

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I'm saying he can't throw a putter as far balanced on his front leg only as I can from an x step.

This is what I am advocating. It's called hip rotation initiation before brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2020/f__zGe.gif

Again, there are two options.

1.) You believe this clip shows that in the lateral move into the brace, incidental hip rotation will occur. No one has argued against this, and no one gives a ****.

2.) You believe he is initiating rotation with the rear leg and will continuously rotate from this frame. Everyone has told you this is wrong, in 100 different ways, over and over. You are wrong.

Logically, your 1 and 2 positions contradict. We know that once hip rotation begins it continues without stopping into release of the disc. Therefore, if #1 is true then you must be wrong with #2 and therefore I am correct. If I am wrong, then you must agree that what you said in #1 is wrong.

Since you are very set in your method then I feel a few questions couldn’t hurt to be asked.
1. Where does the power come from? Of the throw? Be specific, with specific muscle groups and how they work.
2. Why does it matter so much when the hip begins rotation?
3. What is the axis of rotation in your opinion?

Like I said, there is a certain sympathy that many people have regarding this topic, because there is an undeniable retrospective 'OH' that occurs. You sure do your best to nuke that sympathy though.

Good luck.

I will be honest in that I don't know exactly the names of every muscle in the body and how they work but when I practice throwing distance I feel a lot in my gluteus and hip muscles. I also feel it in my quads, lower back and lats and deltoid on the throwing side. There's really a lot of muscles involved but those are the ones I feel the most when I throw. My legs are usually the tiredest after throwing. I have noticed that I have gotten larger more defined muscles around my butt, upper legs and hips since I started playing. I don't really feel anything in my arm, I just feel like it's being pulled through.

It matters to know about when hip rotation begins because a lot of new players all arm their disc and have a hard time getting the hips involved. If you get the hips involved at the right time you can feel how the body can pull the disc rather than wonder if your hips do anything. I started pkaying right and threw all arm and had a hard time getting the hips to engage. Then I threw left and instantly felt the difference.

The axis of rotation is around the spine area.

Here comes round 10. Rodeo's new thread "The Line of the Spine".

While this topic is argumentative, it does point out some areas most of remain confused about including me.
The ball golf videos posted recently seem to agree. In a two arm swing lateral motion of about an inch precedes a violent torso rotation with the axis of rotation aligned with the front leg and hip and accompanied by strong torque forces from the front leg.
Exactly how to accomplish that is not clear.
So it's not unexpected there's some misunderstanding.

I suspect the counterbalance of the rear foot may be to resist the side force of rotation.

For me it doesn't matter yet. Concentrating on landing on the front leg feels like it's finally starting to take after a couple years working on it, and I'm getting enough more distance to par some holes I could only bogey. I don't get any of that rotational whip yet, still working.

Paul doesn't twitch until he is in strong brace with his front hip rising. The only way the butt can turn like that is if you are braced on the front side resisting going targetward pushing away from the target.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/w_OHo_.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/2MVEPk.gif

Wish the audio was better quality on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkP-wbZ_47Q#t=3m20s

All of these movements and drills are not prescriptions for success. Rather, they describe motions that your body wants to use to 1) keep itself balanced and 2) meet the brain’s instructed power and line. Bodies are built similarly, but not identical, so there is a range of motion, or variance of mechanics on either side of the ideal.