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-   -   SPOILER(?) - foot fault & hazard penalty, Santa Cruz Masters Cup (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131154)

cheesethin 05-22-2018 08:23 AM

SPOILER(?) - foot fault & hazard penalty, Santa Cruz Masters Cup
 
So just looking for clarity really....

Ricky's tee-shot on hole 15 Final Round incurred two penalty strokes. One for the stance violation (foot-fault) AND one for the disc landing in the bunker hazard.

But the rules also talk about a single throw or action not getting penalized twice:

Quote:

801.02 Enforcement H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played
under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or, among rules that call
for an equal number of penalty throws, the rule that was first violated.
Quote:

QA-APP-1
Is there a priority order for which
violation should count if more than
one rule applies?
Yes. The violation with the most severe
penalty is applied. Ties are broken by
what happened first. A single throw
cannot be penalized for more than one
violation.
On reading through the rules it seems unclear as to when penalties stack up, and when they don't. Something like incorrectly recording your score on a hole is obviously a separate action from whether you went OB on a particular throw on that hole.

But in this scenario could it be argued that the stance violation and landing in the hazard area are all part of 'a throw', and therefore only one stroke should be added. I don't actually think the call was wrong, it feels right to penalize both the stance violation and the hazard area landing. But I want to check that I haven't missed something in the rules that makes this explicit. Am I right that the rules are lacking in clarity on this?

robdeforge 05-22-2018 08:27 AM

I was wondering the same thing...

https://www.pdga.com/faq/out-bounds#t5601n237906

Quote:

QA-OB-6: A player in my group foot-faulted and was called on it (and seconded). His throw went OB. Does he get a warning, a penalty, or two penalties?
A player’s first stance violation results in a penalty throw. In this case, there were multiple violations. Normally, the first violation to occur is the one that counts. In this case, that’s the foot fault (though it doesn’t really matter as it’s one penalty throw either way). There’s no re-throw, so the disc is played as OB. Since a player cannot receive penalty throws for multiple violations on a single throw, there’s just one penalty throw.

Halcón 05-22-2018 08:39 AM

Another day, another Wysocki foot fault.

cheesethin 05-22-2018 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robdeforge (Post 3310438)
I was wondering the same thing...

https://www.pdga.com/faq/out-bounds#t5601n237906

Gosh. That seems to pretty clearly show that the call was wrong. Unless there were special tournament rules in place.

cheesethin 05-22-2018 08:57 AM

From the PDGA website News section.

https://www.pdga.com/news/wysocki-wi...r-coaster-ride

Quote:

As it turns out, this ruling was applied incorrectly. Per the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf Question and Answer section OB6, a player cannot receive more than one penalty stroke on a single throw. Wysocki should have only been assessed one penalty for either the foot fault or the hazard, which would have resulted in an incorrect scorecard at the end of play. Since this error was not caught until the event was completed, though, rule 808.G.1 applies and no more penalty strokes may be assessed. Wysocki won by two strokes, and even if he were to have the penalty for a scoring error added he still would have been victorious by a single stroke.

DG_player 05-22-2018 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesethin (Post 3310445)
From the PDGA website News section.

https://www.pdga.com/news/wysocki-wi...r-coaster-ride

I'm amazed top pros don't know the rules better. Although I think in this case it's somewhat understandable since the rule seems a little illogical and counter-intuitive.

_MTL_ 05-22-2018 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DG_player (Post 3310452)
I'm amazed top pros don't know the rules better. Although I think in this case it's somewhat understandable since the rule seems a little illogical and counter-intuitive.

It's ok not to know the ruling in an usual and admittedly confusing situation, like this one. It's another to be so completely clueless about the rules to even recognize that something doesn't quite seem right and to ask the TD at the end of the round the proper score.

Top pros lack of knowledge of rules is comical. Imagine going to your boss and saying that you don't know the regulations of your job and see their reaction.

_MTL_ 05-22-2018 09:28 AM

Also in the article:

“I never witnessed it – I’ve gotta pay attention more,” (Anthon) admitted.

You just admitted to a courtesy violation.

joecoin 05-22-2018 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3310469)
Also in the article:

“I never witnessed it – I’ve gotta pay attention more,” (Anthon) admitted.

You just admitted to a courtesy violation.

Should we tell his probation officer?

cheesethin 05-22-2018 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheesethin (Post 3310436)
it feels right to penalize both the stance violation and the hazard area landing.

So I think I'll stand by my earlier statement that foot faults should be treated separately from regulated area/route/position faults - both penalties should count.

It makes sense to me that regulated area/route/position faults are lumped in together as one 'class' of fault, and that you should only incur one penalty per throw for transgressing any of them. You make one 'error' by shanking your shot - you incur one penalty, even if you miss the mando AND go OB AND can't find you disc. It is still just as a result of one error - shanking your shot.

But a foot-fault/stance violation strikes me as a separate kind of thing. In the Wysocki incident, him stepping over the tee-pad front line didn't really play any significant part in the shot landing in the hazard. I'd say a player doing this has made two 'errors', one, not placing their feet correctly & two, throwing the shot poorly.

(A possible exception to this is slipping on the tee-pad/run-up. That could cause you to foot fault and misthrow.)


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