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-   -   Buzzz SS or Comet (please read the qualification first) (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135357)

Blobfish 11-14-2019 09:13 AM

Buzzz SS or Comet (please read the qualification first)
 
Ok, so I am working with some kids who are eager to start playing disc golf. I have a basket in my classroom and we made an indoor putting league. I have lots of practice putters.
That said, we were going to order some discs for the spring. I had previously purchased a bunch of Z-Buzzzes and since we still have several of those, the kids will likely start off with putter/buzzz combo.

My question to the DGCR audience is, if the kids are already sort of used to the feel of the buzzz, would it make more sense to buy some Buzzz SS's which should feel very similar in hand and should be able to help kids recognize the stability difference between it and a regular buzzz or does that not matter and I should go with some comets, which I know are popular Discraft US mids?

If possible, please justify your reasoning, thanks!

(the students are high school age)

biscoe 11-14-2019 09:39 AM

How old are they? Would a smaller disc than either of those fit them better?

Blobfish 11-14-2019 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3519045)
How old are they? Would a smaller disc than either of those fit them better?

Good question, I meant to add that. They are high school age

biscoe 11-14-2019 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blobfish (Post 3519047)
Good question, I meant to add that. They are high school age

I think you are fine with either one in that case. I would go with the buzzz were it me simply because i personally have never liked the hand feel of the comet.

Treeknuckle 11-14-2019 10:07 AM

The Comet is an incredible flier and is a staple in my bag personally (so take this with a grain of salt.) I think it was a big part of helping me get my form down and really start progressing my game. It has this slow putter like flight but just keeps going, it's also got silly glide.

BUT.

It also has a VERY weird feel, which took me a while to get used to, and it can take a little while to master. Z's and ESP's are a good bit less finnicky, than their X counterparts, but may overlap a touch with the Buzzz as well right out of the box.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

deyo7 11-14-2019 10:16 AM

So, is the idea to have a buzz and then paired a more understable complement? Or are you just buying more midranges so that all kids have something?

If the former I'd go X buzzz or X comet (think either fine) rather than SS personally. BTW SS can be pretty stable for beginners, even for athletes IME

Blobfish 11-14-2019 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deyo7 (Post 3519064)
So, is the idea to have a buzz and then paired a more understable complement? Or are you just buying more midranges so that all kids have something?

If the former I'd go X buzzz or X comet (think either fine) rather than SS personally. BTW SS can be pretty stable for beginners, even for athletes IME


On one hand, I was hoping to let them experience the difference in flight characteristics (they are in my physics class).

On the other hand, I wasn't sure if that would actually be demonstrable to beginners and so therefore, would a comet be a wiser choice? I kind of thought of the comet as a standalone disc that works for all skill levels but caters to lower arm speeds learning to throw, whereas I think of the buzzz ss as a disc specific to buzzz throwers who wanted something that felt like a beat-in buzzz?

Moose33 11-14-2019 10:33 AM

The Buzzz SS should feel good to them if they like a Buzzz already.

Keller 11-14-2019 10:41 AM

I'd go X-Comet.

It gives options in feel. Just as many don't like the feel of the Comet, there are a lot of people who don't like the feel of a Buzzz.
The Comet adds a different feel and flight. A Buzzz-SS isn't going to be that much different to newer players than a Buzzz.

MarkDSM 11-14-2019 11:22 AM

Buzzz SS ranges down to putter/approach easier than a Comet.

Blobfish 11-14-2019 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keller (Post 3519082)
I'd go X-Comet.

It gives options in feel. Just as many don't like the feel of the Comet, there are a lot of people who don't like the feel of a Buzzz.
The Comet adds a different feel and flight. A Buzzz-SS isn't going to be that much different to newer players than a Buzzz.

So this was my first thought. I know that there's a lot of comet-love out there and as much as I personally love the sol, I figured the comet might be a better choice. But then I remembered that Discraft makes the Buzzz SS, and hence this post, and my concern that new players really wouldn't see any difference between the SS and the regular buzzz. I have a beat X-buzzz which flies very differently than a Z-buzzz, but I would imagine that if I gave both to a new player, they'd get pretty similar results throwing each.

ThrowaEnvy 11-14-2019 12:02 PM

It's a tough call, I think either is suitable. If you already have some Buzzz's get some Comets. People like options. If you are doing more one disc stuff the Buzzz or SS feels more like a putter to me, I used one for years.

The Comet though in terms of physics is superior and will demonstrate the concepts of flight much easier. Of course with two discs the differences in a more stable flight will be more apparent.

There's a great rant by LoPan on disc physics.

ThrowaEnvy 11-14-2019 12:04 PM

From Noob questions or ask a stupid question thread: post 402

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoPan12 (Post 620110)
Neither am I. I do however have a degree that involved a lot of fluid dynamics. And before you ask the question, air is a fluid. And ArcheType, you're sort of right. I'll try to make this as understandable as I can....but this will get REAL sciencey, so bear with me please, or feel free to just skip this post entirely. Or better yet, go hit the end. After finishing up, I realized the first couple paragraphs aren't directly about "Why do I get more glide as it beats in"

Since we're talking about glide here, we'll treat the disc, as a whole, like a wing, or airfoil, as seen here.
http://www.cavalrypilot.com/fm1-514/IMG00007.GIF
Okay. When the disc flies through the air, you get a distinct seperation of air flow. Now consider two particles that get split up be the disc, one goes on top, one goes on the bottom. They will meet up again, behind the disc, so, because the top one has to travel farther, it is going faster. As speed increases, pressure decreases. You are left with a lower pressure area above the disc, and a higher pressure area below the disc. This phenomenon is called "LIFT" and for a given speed, will overcome the weight of the disc, and push it up. And what about that empty space under the disc? Well in that space, you get all sorts of forces, and I'm not totally sure what the net effect is...so...I'm not even gonna try.
When you now consider the rotation, think about relative speeds. For a RHBH, the left edge of the disc is moving faster than the right edge. So, due to the higher speed, the left edge will create MORE LIFT than the right side. This is shown in Fig. A below. The blue line is the amount of lift exterted on the disc. This is where you get the effect of flip, or HSS. The cant of the the disc then causes the overall lift force to steer the disc to the right.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5qz7r8ylPGc/TQ...0/untitled.jpg
AH! So why don't all my discs keep going right?
Well...you've got a rotating mass. This causes gyroscopic forces having to do with angular momentum and pitch and roll and whatnot. In a nutshell, the rotating mass of the disc causes a sum of forces call gyroscopic procession. This is what causes LSS, same as HSS, just the opposite direction. Fig. B shows the this force on the disc.
When you first release the disc, it has the most spin it ever will in that flight, and the assymetrical lift forces will outweigh precessional roll. But as the disc slows down, the lift forces aren't as large, and the disc rolls to the left.

It slows down, because of DRAG! Drag is a force that opposes your disc. The friction between the disc and air rob energy and the spin reduces, and the forward speed declines! BTW, a driver has less drag than a putter, due to putters having a blunt edge. So a driver's flight is therefore less lift-driven, and more ballistic. But don't think about that for now.

NOW, those of you still reading (god-bless you) are asking, "Okay, neat...what's this s#$t have to do with beating in and more glide?"
Well, turbulence is our friend here. A turbulent boundary layer on the surfaces of the disc eventually result in less drag! There's more fluid dynamics involved here, but trust me when I say, you end up with less drag. This is why golf balls are dimpled, but the reasons are a bit different for a sphere.
So, as you beat in a disc, it gets all these micro abrasions, that cause little eddies and vortexes that add up to turbulent, chaotic flow. In some cases, while this turbulence increases surface friction drag, the overall effect is a reduction in drag forces. This has to do with boundary layers, seperation points, and changes in pressure fields. But I'm damned tired.
The beating in reduces drag (to a point, then you start to get screwed again) allowing a disc to maintain the various lift forces for longer, lettings it go longer before fading, letting it glide longer.
Yeah. I think. Good Night.


F. Howl 11-15-2019 04:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I'd go with the Buzzz SS. Will grip the same as a Buzzz, and demonstrate an understable flight without adding an additional variable. Maybe even toss a few Buzzz OS's in the cart just to demonstrate the full spectrum.

elmexdela 11-15-2019 05:05 PM

are they even gettin the buzzes up to speed to where they would notice the differences

BryanC 11-15-2019 05:22 PM

Do you need to buy more mids? If I knew a beginner that already had a buzzz and a putter, I would probably recommend a Sting for the next disc (assuming you want to stick with Discraft). I've thrown the ace race Sting and I thought it flew like a beat in Leopard, which is perfect for a beginner driver.

MaxFlight 11-15-2019 05:22 PM

Have you considered a Meteor?

Three Putt 11-15-2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elmexdela (Post 3519777)
are they even gettin the buzzes up to speed to where they would notice the differences

This.

The Buzzz and Buzzz SS are essentially the same disc for low-power throwers. There isn't enough difference in them that players with minimal skill will see much (if any) change. Meteors are the same way, you have to know how to throw to get it to have the understable flight it is supposed to have. Comets fly OK ish at low power so they might work better. Or not, it's hard to know. You would have to go with the Sol to have something that would be really noticeably different for low power/low skill players.

If the kids are actually throwing the Buzzz pretty well, you can throw out everything I typed.

mshelton 11-17-2019 10:25 AM

I bag Comets and a regular Buzzz, I've thrown an SS Buzzz a few times.

For me the Comet always feels power hungry, not being a disc that really like being thrown at lower speeds, might just be me but all the Comets I've owned (X, Z, ESP, gloZ, gloESP) were the same in that characteristic, they wanted power.

I've had quite a few Buzzzs over the years from the original bar stamp to TI (haven't thrown the new swirlies or PMcB) and none of them had the power hungry feeling I get from a Comet, they all seemed to be fine powered down, different flights of course but not incapacitated like a low powered Comet.

If picking between the 2 for starting players I'd say the Buzzz SS.

Someone here also mentioned the Sol, if you aren't set on either the Comet or Buzzz SS then it may be worth a look as to me they fly like a non power hungry Comet.

Frolf Lundgren 11-17-2019 01:37 PM

I agree with those saying find something less stable than either a buzzz ss or a comet to demonstrate understability in comparison to a buzzz for beginners. I’m an intermediate player and bought a new Z comet recently that would not turn until months of playing with it. The feel was something I hated as a beginner but forced myself to get used to once I realized how useful it was on the course.

I learned the hyzer flip and turnover with a Discraft Archer, which had a comfortable rim and was my longest flying disc for a long time. I pass this thing to every friend I introduce to the sport and they always gravitate toward it. I don’t know how available they are but I don’t hesitate in recommending them as a learning tool/max distance driver for students.

Darrington disc 11-17-2019 01:54 PM

For me the x comet is great for lower speed control shots. Anything within about 40' I turbo putt. If you have baseball players in the group it is not too different than throwing a slider. For me understable fairway driver is best for turbo. For slower arm speed maybe a stratus instead of buzzz?

rocthecourse 11-17-2019 02:40 PM

What about the Sol? -3 turn should be enough that some of the kids could turn it over.

ru4por 11-17-2019 06:29 PM

I generally turn to Comets and the Stratus for mid range introductions to new players. I think the Buzzz SS is pretty similar to a Buzzz for a new player. Understanding the differences should be more valuable than appreciating similarities, IMO.

Blobfish 11-17-2019 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3519787)
This.

The Buzzz and Buzzz SS are essentially the same disc for low-power throwers. There isn't enough difference in them that players with minimal skill will see much (if any) change.

That's what I was suspecting. The short answer is no, they probably aren't and so they won't see the difference. I have the much grander vision of trying to use the discs to demonstrate rotational dynamics in my AP physics C course.
That said, I'm also having them try to design and construct a disc launcher with the hopes that we can get better data than with newb arms, but not sure how that will pan out.

Blobfish 11-17-2019 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocthecourse (Post 3520418)
What about the Sol? -3 turn should be enough that some of the kids could turn it over.

I personally love the sol, but I didn't actually consider it because the comet seemed to be the popular entry-level midrange. But as much as I love the sol, I think it feels a little strange in hand with a power-grip (not that most people would try ripping a sol). Compared to the buzzz or the comet, the sol has a blunter and narrower rim/wing and feels more like a putter.

Blobfish 11-17-2019 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3520470)
I generally turn to Comets and the Stratus for mid range introductions to new players. I think the Buzzz SS is pretty similar to a Buzzz for a new player. Understanding the differences should be more valuable than appreciating similarities, IMO.

Ahhh, the stratus. I totally forgot that one even though one of the most technically gifted players I know uses one with deadly accuracy. Thanks for the tip, I kind of like the idea of the kids starting with roach+stratus and/or buzzz.

tomsdiscs 11-17-2019 11:53 PM

Try Champion Panthers, smaller diameter discs are easier for beginners, Buzzz SS and Comets are larger diameter mids.

wolfmandragon 11-18-2019 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomsdiscs (Post 3520538)
Try Champion Panthers, smaller diameter discs are easier for beginners, Buzzz SS and Comets are larger diameter mids.

Not even. A large diameter disc has physics on it's side. Much easier for new players to get a feel for what the disc can do.

Alexplz 11-18-2019 11:18 AM

Between your options I would say Comet, as again I don't think beginners would appreciate the difference between an SS and a B in flight - I can't say I do either TBH.

Had you considered something truly flippy, and maybe a tick faster than the Buzzz? I would recommend some lightweight X Stratuses that might be a little easier to throw than the Buzzz and might also demonstrate HST better than the Comet.

Three Putt 11-18-2019 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexplz (Post 3520644)
Between your options I would say Comet, as again I don't think beginners would appreciate the difference between an SS and a B in flight - I can't say I do either TBH.

Had you considered something truly flippy, and maybe a tick faster than the Buzzz? I would recommend some lightweight X Stratuses that might be a little easier to throw than the Buzzz and might also demonstrate HST better than the Comet.

I taught my daughter to play with a Stratus as her driver. Her progression was Stratus to Glide to Comet and now the Comet is her go-to. She couldn't throw a Comet early on, but now she throws lazers with it and leans on her mids a lot when she plays. She has a Westside Seer that is about the only "driver" she throws. The Stratus has evolved into her turnover disc, but early on it was about the only disc she could throw decently.

Alexplz 11-18-2019 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Putt (Post 3520677)
I taught my daughter to play with a Stratus as her driver. Her progression was Stratus to Glide to Comet and now the Comet is her go-to. She couldn't throw a Comet early on, but now she throws lazers with it and leans on her mids a lot when she plays. She has a Westside Seer that is about the only "driver" she throws. The Stratus has evolved into her turnover disc, but early on it was about the only disc she could throw decently.

Makes sense - I think when recommending beginner discs it's important to consider what kind of beginner we're talking about. I took one buddy out with a classic setup of a few putters to try, a DX teebird, a Z buzzz, etc. He's a naturally athletic, lanky guy who has thrown a lot of frisbees, and was keeping up with me off the bat.

On the other hand, if you're taking folks out who are only tangentially interested in the sport or are really just humoring you giving it a try, it's important to put something in their hand that flies straight DESPITE their (lack of) throwing form. Light weight, comfortable, flippy. Not a Z Buzzz.

jdw80550 11-18-2019 07:27 PM

I would actually look at a driver that you can range and use for FH. Adds a variety to uses and can act as an understable compliment.


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