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-   -   DGPT: 2020 Green Mountain Championship Sept 3-6 (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137310)

nothinbuttree 09-07-2020 10:25 AM

I think part of hole 7's mystery is the drive itself. One can either throw a fairway driver or spike hyzer higher speed disc short of the first O/B, or try to clear it with a traditional drive. I saw several bad shots just off the drive in the two rounds. From the very best players. And wind did not seem to be a big factor either round.

This poor shot selection/execution then leads to A) throwing 3 from before the O/B or B) throwing 2, but from a less than perfect lie.

Then a lot of people break the cardinal rule: never follow a bad shot with a dumb shot. They try to make up that lost stroke in an epic hero throw, which is fraught with danger on a relatively (100' vs 1200' long) narrow fairway.

I think a good mid/fairway shot to just short of the O/B, then a good but not great 2nd shot, staying in the middle of the fairway, would leave about 350'-400' to the pin, and a decent chance at getting up and down from there for a birdie.

I've only played the hole once and got a 7, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, but I only have 300' power. I somehow ended up going O/B right on my 2nd shot... :)

Just as a side note, it is interesting how top pros, who can throw 300' dead straight in the woods, often have trouble throwing straight 400' in a wide open field unless they have a huge hyzer line.

ToddL 09-07-2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nothinbuttree (Post 3628721)
Then a lot of people break the cardinal rule: never follow a bad shot with a dumb shot. They try to make up that lost stroke in an epic hero throw, which is fraught with danger on a relatively (100' vs 1200' long) narrow fairway.

A lot of golfers refuse to play golf. They play "have to birdie everything" instead, even after they screw up.
(And that's also not to say that's the "wrong" or "dumb" way to play. If you want to win, you kinda have to birdie everything. If everybody runs everything every time, then someone is going to make more of them and come out with the win. If your goal is to finish 15th place, then you can just throw chip shots down the fairway and take a bunch of pars. But if you want to finish 1st, then you have to take a lot of risks, and maybe you'll be the chosen one this weekend.)

nothinbuttree 09-07-2020 01:13 PM

I get that SOMEONE will play great and you have to be aggressive at this level to actually win, but also that once one bad shot is thrown on a particular hole, the risk reward pendulum on that hole swings a lot more to the risk side. That course really sets up where the 2nd shot on several holes is more important than the first shot. Not sure if it was designed that way, but think about how many holes have less than a full drive on the first throw: 1, 4, 7, 8, 10 (I think--the wall hole where basket is in the woods), 16, 18. Getting more aggressive on the drives on these holes will usually result in a par at best, and rarely (very) an eagle--KJ's rollers on 1 (though not in the actual tourney) being an exception, but that is a very risky play.

One thing I saw KJ do on the back nine was play smart--especially once he saw his Paul was going to get par on a particular hole. He made good decisions, purposefully not giving up 2 strokes on a hole. I think if he would have to play more aggressively he would have, but he just didn't have to. His back 9 nerves seemed great. I think he is here to stay.

ILUVSMGS18 09-07-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torpedo Vegas (Post 3628502)
How tall is Hailey King? My wife thinks that she is very tall but I think she just looks taller because she is very thin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nova P (Post 3628598)
Tiny. Like 5'nothing.

However, everyone is tiny to me, so I could be wrong.

She's about the same height as PP, if not a bit taller. I'd guess she's between 5'4 and 5'6.

Orioles_Lefty 09-07-2020 03:08 PM

On 7 it seems like the error you can’t make is an OB with little positive distance gained. I wonder what singular choice or decision sequence creates that result the most.

The OB on that hole that bothers me the least is RHFH out over the left side OB pushing for extra distance for a birdie putt and not a birdie upshot. Seems the right risk/reward.

That right tree line really seems to eat up distance gains.

Steve West 09-07-2020 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty (Post 3628810)
...

That right tree line really seems to eat up distance gains.

If so, it doesn't need to tack on a penalty throw. If it were a Relief Area (no-penalty OB) the players could get punished by lack of distance instead of lack of distance AND a penalty throw. That might make for more exciting strategies. And they still wouldn't need to go into the trees.

the_lung 09-07-2020 06:20 PM

I love the observations and discussion about hole#7 on Fox, but to me, it’s how competitors played hole#16 and how critical it was to the outcome of both divisions. Hailey lost the tourney because of it, and it also put the nail in the coffin on Paul’s comeback bid.

DiscFifty 09-07-2020 07:29 PM

For me the mind $%^& of the tournament is Dickerson's R2 hole #18. He could of gone tee to basket with a putter and shot better.

Steve West 09-07-2020 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_lung (Post 3628843)
I love the observations and discussion about hole#7 on Fox, but to me, itís how competitors played hole#16 and how critical it was to the outcome of both divisions. Hailey lost the tourney because of it, and it also put the nail in the coffin on Paulís comeback bid.

Interestingly, there was no single hole where if it had been skipped for both rounds, it would have changed Kevin being 1st or Paul being 2nd.

Here is how all the holes performed, in terms of how much they contributed to the amount of information in the total MPO scores.

F06 19.0%
B13 15.3%
F01 11.8%
F04 11.4%
B12 10.6%
F13 10.1%
F05 10.1%
B08 10.0%
F08 10.0%
B07 9.3%
B06 9.1%
B02 8.6%
F03 7.9%
B04 7.6%
F18 7.2%
B17 6.6%
B18 6.4%
B05 6.0%
B03 5.9%
F09 5.7%
F07 5.2%
F16 4.5%
F17 4.4%
B09 4.1%
B11 3.9%
B10 3.8%
B16 3.8%
B01 3.8%
F14 2.6%
F10 2.2%
F12 2.2%
B15 2.1%
F15 1.0%
F11 -3.5%
F02 -4.4%
B14 -5.2%

Yes, the hole that should have been par 2 was the most important hole of the tournament.

Orioles_Lefty 09-07-2020 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve West (Post 3628830)
If so, it doesn't need to tack on a penalty throw. If it were a Relief Area (no-penalty OB) the players could get punished by lack of distance instead of lack of distance AND a penalty throw. That might make for more exciting strategies. And they still wouldn't need to go into the trees.

Makes sense. I donít know what the throw tracker shows but seems like a fair number of people go from right side of fairway after 1 throw to the left-ish side with a forehand and then have some options from there in terms of their selection.

The RHBH second throw after the full first throw needs a fair amount of airspace to get full distance and the tree line comes into play. An interesting proposal youíve made. That tree line also as a fair amount of luck with kick and where the disc ultimately falls.

I throw LHBH and about 300 feet, so picturing the pro righty options spins my head around a little.

Steve West 09-07-2020 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty (Post 3628887)
I throw LHBH and about 300 feet, so picturing the pro righty options spins my head around a little.

Watch the coverage in a mirror.

I always R/L flip pictures of the holes before I finish a design.

ILUVSMGS18 09-08-2020 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty (Post 3628810)
On 7 it seems like the error you canít make is an OB with little positive distance gained. I wonder what singular choice or decision sequence creates that result the most.

The OB on that hole that bothers me the least is RHFH out over the left side OB pushing for extra distance for a birdie putt and not a birdie upshot. Seems the right risk/reward.

That right tree line really seems to eat up distance gains.

That error applies to most of the course, especially on 1, 4, 7, 8, 12, 16 and 18. I birdied 7 from the whites with an OB and I slipped on the teepad. Played BH with Heat, FH OB just outside C1 with a Raptor and hit the putt. Had I thrown my Force instead of my Raptor I might have had an inside C1 putt for Eagle.

Having played the blue tees once, I took a 7 with an OB (long 3rd shot on the wall behind the basket) and a foot fault. Played Zeus, Crank (FF) Force (OB long) and missed the C2 putt.

I think that the top MPO guys can definitely have a look at a 3 if they have a drive that gets to at least the white tee if not the bulge on the left and then have a monster shot from there. 1200' is an awful long distance to cover in 2 shots with OB on both sides.

Jolt 09-08-2020 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve West (Post 3628718)
Two possible explanations:

1. When most courses call a hole a par 5, it really should be a par 4. The TD or designer just wants to see "eagles". Players are accustomed to thinking that on par 5, the score they should expect is 4, so that's what they plan to do. However, on this course all the pars were set correctly to actually be the score an expert would expect (except #6 where players expect a 2), so going for 4 is not a good plan.

2. The fairway is about 85 to 125 feet wide. Call it 100. Players at this level can land their disc within plus or minus 50 feet off-line about two-thirds of the time on a 350-foot throw. A frequently used design principle is that players of the targeted skill level should meet the challenge on each throw about two-thirds of the time. That's where a throw is both fair and challenging. Since it takes three 350-foot throws, each player has a 70% chance (1- .66^3) of going OB at least once.

I'm not sure how much each possible explanation comes into play, but I would bet it's more 2 than 1.

Plus minus 50ft off-line on a 350ft throw to me sounds quite bad for a top pro...i feel they should hit that 9 out of 10

If you read the " What's your 2 shot distance?" most players says that they can hit C1 from 200-300ft.

I mean if you place a mark to hit every 350ft on that hole i would hope the best players in the world would place the disc closer than plus/minus 50ft from those marks?

Or say it another way. . if hole 7 was just 350ft long with that +100ft wide fairway. . .most players in the field would park that hole.. .

Sure i get the "the top pros must birdy everything" thing. . .but on a hole with 6,07 Avg. . do you really need to birdy that hole?!?

brutalbrutus 09-08-2020 04:47 AM

I'm sure a lot of those OBs on 7 came from locals and the non "top pro" crowd that plays some of these events.

Jolt 09-08-2020 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutalbrutus (Post 3628980)
I'm sure a lot of those OBs on 7 came from locals and the non "top pro" crowd that plays some of these events.

Paul and Eagle trew OB twice on hole7, And KJ and Ricky once. .i would call them top pros ;)

Monocacy 09-08-2020 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3628969)
If you read the " What's your 2 shot distance?" most players says that they can hit C1 from 200-300ft.

Sounds like the accuracy equivalent of ďinternet distance.Ē ;)

brutalbrutus 09-08-2020 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3628983)
Paul and Eagle trew OB twice on hole7, And KJ and Ricky once. .i would call them top pros ;)

Thanks captain obvious.

WardM 09-08-2020 08:41 PM

Paul Mcbeth rainbow disc
 
Anyone know what the rainbow disc Paul has used all tournament long? Canít tell if itís a Luna or not.

Twmccoy 09-08-2020 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolt (Post 3628499)
Insane score spread. . Paige P is 48 throws ahead of Paige S !! . . and Paige S won Worlds here
( and KJ had 37 throws better tham her husband )

That is simply incomprehensible.

Paige S hasn't had a good year.

Paige P didn't even really play well until mid-tourny this weekend. She tightened things up a lot in the last round. Early on she was a little rough.

Discraft Dad 09-09-2020 09:50 AM

It was nice to see Paige respond positively to being challenged. Usually doesn't happen. She certainly didn't succumb to any pressure.

Twmccoy 09-09-2020 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discraft Dad (Post 3629565)
It was nice to see Paige respond positively to being challenged. Usually doesn't happen. She certainly didn't succumb to any pressure.

I agree. The final round was "make or break", and Paige didn't waver. That had to be a satisfying win for her, especially since she had to fight pretty much the whole way for it.


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