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brutalbrutus 12-30-2019 03:13 PM

PDGA's New Disciplinary Process
 
https://www.pdga.com/announcements/n...january-1-2020

Takes effect Jan 1 2020.

Quote:

The single biggest change is the introduction of a public classification system for different offenses and the definition of standard penalty ranges for those offenses. While someone subject to discipline will not have their specific conduct made public, the general class of their offense will be. The classes, broadly defined, are:

Class A: Physical assault or imminent threat of physical harm.
Class B: Willful or purposeful cheating or circumvention of the rules.
Class C: Harassment, pattern of inaccurate score reporting.
Class D: Drug and alcohol violations.
Class E: Administrative violations (most commonly, failure to pay required fees).

------------------

Finally, the document sets out the process by which actions are evaluated. Here is the short version (see the document for more detail):

1. The member (or members) submits the action to the Disciplinary Committee using the online form at PDGA.com.

2. The Committee determines whether the matter already has been addressed adequately by the rules. If it has, they will decline to evaluate further. The filing member(s) may appeal such a determination.

3. If the Committee determines that the matter should go forward, they will notify the respondent member and begin investigation, which consists primarily of taking statements from witnesses and the respondent member. The respondent member may decline to answer without any assumption of guilt.

4. The Committee will come to a determination by a vote of at least 50% of the Committee members and forward their recommendation to the Board Liaison, who will either approve the recommendation or request reconsideration on certain grounds.

5. The Board Liaison will notify the respondent member of the final decision. The respondent member may then appeal to the PDGA Board of Directors for reconsideration within thirty (30) days.

EarthRocker 12-30-2019 03:22 PM

Interesting.

I imagine the only people who even think about these things are those who need to be disciplined, or those who have to administer the discipline.

Luckily, I don't fall into either category. So I can read that stuff and just say, "Interesting."

(See, this is my way of also saying, "I have read the post you carefully constructed, and found something of value in the very act of it, even if the information contained within will likely never directly affect me. Thank you for taking the time, sir.")

bwgort 12-31-2019 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3532734)
Interesting.

I imagine the only people who even think about these things are those who need to be disciplined, or those who have to administer the discipline.

Luckily, I don't fall into either category. So I can read that stuff and just say, "Interesting."

(See, this is my way of also saying, "I have read the post you carefully constructed, and found something of value in the very act of it, even if the information contained within will likely never directly affect me. Thank you for taking the time, sir.")

Isn't the point of the updates that it's the entire community's responsibility to administer discipline?

EarthRocker 12-31-2019 10:40 AM

I was being flippant, admittedly. My mood was weird yesterday.

If you'll allow me to be pedantic, though, the answer is, Not really. In the grand scheme, we are our own policemen and -women, certainly. But we don't administer, we report to administrators. It's a subtle difference, but a real one. And now that I've said that, I feel compelled to flesh out the thought more fully.

I play a lot more casual rounds than tournament ones. But in either scenario, I never look for foot faults, for instance. Even if every other player habitually steps over their mark, is it really "willful or purposeful cheating"? I don't know, and I don't care much, because that inch or so doesn't give any real advantage...I do comment about limb breakage, litter, and foul language, but only to be heard once, and I try to be as mellow as possible. More like friendly suggestions or reminders.

I also am not offended if someone wants to drink or smoke while they play. Sanctioned or no, it just doesn't bother me, nor does it give the person any competitive advantage.

Which brings us to the more egregious infractions: the "physical assault" stuff, and the pencil-whipping stuff.

I've never, ever seen anything on a course - in a tournament or casual round - that comes anywhere near a physical scrap. That seems like a joke to me. Now, I'm sure it does happen. Hence the rules.
But those people are rare in our game. Exceedingly. Again, though, if it happens, then we report it. It's up to others to mete out the discipline. (Never mind what I myself might do in defense of my person or others. Try me. That has nothing to do with disc golf or friendly competition.)

Cheaters never prosper. Go ahead, lie about your score. If you can sleep at night, go with my blessings. But YOU know what you did, and so does any Deity you'd care not to offend. You must have needed that prize pack (or cash) more than I did. It can be hard for me to remember my own 18-holes; if you cheat on the card, I'm not likely to even notice.

So, you see, I'm basically a live-and-let-live kind of dude, and have a Middle- to Far-Eastern mindset abut these things. Let everyone be, and water will find its own level. Cheaters and a$$holes suck, but I have more important things to think about. The chances of me, personally, filing any kind of legal motion against a disc golfer? Slim and slimmer. If we can't hash it out on the ground, it's forgotten by the time I leave the parking lot. (Realizing fully that not everyone feels this way. Those of you who regularly play for money have every reason to care bunches and bunches.)

Sometimes, my brain churns up some stuff, and I do my best to convey it with style and precision. This is probably not a successful example of that. :o

Happy lawyering, everyone!

Jay Dub 12-31-2019 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3532883)
I was being flippant, admittedly. My mood was weird yesterday.

If you'll allow me to be pedantic, though, the answer is, Not really. In the grand scheme, we are our own policemen and -women, certainly. But we don't administer, we report to administrators. It's a subtle difference, but a real one. And now that I've said that, I feel compelled to flesh out the thought more fully.

I play a lot more casual rounds than tournament ones. But in either scenario, I never look for foot faults, for instance. Even if every other player habitually steps over their mark, is it really "willful or purposeful cheating"? I don't know, and I don't care much, because that inch or so doesn't give any real advantage...I do comment about limb breakage, litter, and foul language, but only to be heard once, and I try to be as mellow as possible. More like friendly suggestions or reminders.

I also am not offended if someone wants to drink or smoke while they play. Sanctioned or no, it just doesn't bother me, nor does it give the person any competitive advantage.

Which brings us to the more egregious infractions: the "physical assault" stuff, and the pencil-whipping stuff.

I've never, ever seen anything on a course - in a tournament or casual round - that comes anywhere near a physical scrap. That seems like a joke to me. Now, I'm sure it does happen. Hence the rules.
But those people are rare in our game. Exceedingly. Again, though, if it happens, then we report it. It's up to others to mete out the discipline. (Never mind what I myself might do in defense of my person or others. Try me. That has nothing to do with disc golf or friendly competition.)

Cheaters never prosper. Go ahead, lie about your score. If you can sleep at night, go with my blessings. But YOU know what you did, and so does any Deity you'd care not to offend. You must have needed that prize pack (or cash) more than I did. It can be hard for me to remember my own 18-holes; if you cheat on the card, I'm not likely to even notice.

So, you see, I'm basically a live-and-let-live kind of dude, and have a Middle- to Far-Eastern mindset abut these things. Let everyone be, and water will find its own level. Cheaters and a$$holes suck, but I have more important things to think about. The chances of me, personally, filing any kind of legal motion against a disc golfer? Slim and slimmer. If we can't hash it out on the ground, it's forgotten by the time I leave the parking lot. (Realizing fully that not everyone feels this way. Those of you who regularly play for money have every reason to care bunches and bunches.)

Sometimes, my brain churns up some stuff, and I do my best to convey it with style and precision. This is probably not a successful example of that. :o

Happy lawyering, everyone!

Do what you want in casual rounds.

The foot fault thing during tournaments does matter, not because another inch will make a difference in the shot but because the people who do follow the rules will know they have to concentrate extra to make sure they don't foot fault.
The ones who cheat and don't care about their foot placement is taking advantage of the rule and that makes the throw much easier.

EarthRocker 12-31-2019 11:40 AM

Agreed, sir. I don't say it doesn't matter, only that I don't look for it. I would be horrified to learn that I foot-faulted myself. I do think about it when I'm throwing, and welcome any calls on it if I screw up.

I just like taking the occasional contrarian position in here. It hones my thoughts and gives me solid typing practice. :thmbup:

Nova P 12-31-2019 12:23 PM

I've noticed that I only foot fault when I'm in the lead by a small margin, or I am in second place and threatening to overtake first coming down the last couple of holes.

At least, that's the only time it's ever called on me. Weird, huh?

Chains Bailey 01-05-2020 09:42 PM

Remind me who is on this board?

I feel like there is an interesting dichotomy going on if my memory serves me correctly.

GMcAtee 01-06-2020 12:18 AM

I enjoy reading the disciplinary action list for any names I may know. This will make it more interesting categorizing their infraction.

ru4por 01-06-2020 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chains Bailey (Post 3534216)
Remind me who is on this board?

I feel like there is an interesting dichotomy going on if my memory serves me correctly.

This seems like a rhetorical question. Do you have something you would like to discuss? I'm not sure vague innuendo is really purposeful or helpful.

JC17393 01-06-2020 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chains Bailey (Post 3534216)
Remind me who is on this board?

I feel like there is an interesting dichotomy going on if my memory serves me correctly.

All volunteer members of committees can be found here.

Dcinmd 01-06-2020 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC17393 (Post 3534266)
All volunteer members of committees can be found here.

It is interesting that the Discipline Committee is the only one that is not fully listed out with members. Maybe it is a committee of two? I can't see a lot of people volunteering for this committee.

_MTL_ 01-06-2020 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dcinmd (Post 3534290)
It is interesting that the Discipline Committee is the only one that is not fully listed out with members. Maybe it is a committee of two? I can't see a lot of people volunteering for this committee.

The PDGA keeps the members of our committee private. The only name published is mine, as chair. We have 8 members.

We recently had a vacancy and I had about 50 applications to join. There is absolutely interest in being on this committee.

DiscFifty 01-06-2020 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3534318)
The PDGA keeps the members of our committee private.

Why? My membership should allow 100% transparency on chairs, members, etc.

JC17393 01-06-2020 11:05 AM

Considering the nature of what the disciplinary committee does, it's probably prudent that the members aren't publicly known. Seems like they, of all the committees, are apt to come under the most scrutiny from people with a personal grudge (as opposed to a philosophical disagreement). Don't really want people making disciplinary decisions based on concerns over personal backlash as opposed to on the merits of the case.

biscoe 01-06-2020 11:19 AM

Definitely disagree with the PDGA keeping members of ANY committee a secret.

BionicRib 01-06-2020 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3534332)
Definitely disagree with the PDGA keeping members of ANY committee a secret.

Atleast we know they are not volunteering for recognition

robdeforge 01-06-2020 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3532892)
Agreed, sir. I don't say it doesn't matter, only that I don't look for it. I would be horrified to learn that I foot-faulted myself. I do think about it when I'm throwing, and welcome any calls on it if I screw up.

I just like taking the occasional contrarian position in here. It hones my thoughts and gives me solid typing practice. :thmbup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3532883)
because that inch or so doesn't give any real advantage

So you DID say it doesn't matter...

Jugular 01-06-2020 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robdeforge (Post 3534355)
So you DID say it doesn't matter...

Note the condition 'real' in real advantage. Suggesting that he's aware there might be an advantage but that it is small enough to not bother him.

EarthRocker 01-06-2020 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jugular (Post 3534398)
Note the condition 'real' in real advantage. Suggesting that he's aware there might be an advantage but that it is small enough to not bother him.

Thank you for that, Jugular.

I should try to remember that in the current climate, both in here and in the world generally, we aren't allowed the luxury of vague defenses of our stupid opinions.

Freely stipulated: I don't always achieve the level of precision with language that I'm going for. I blame television. And Hilary, of course, because everything is her fault. :\

robdeforge 01-06-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3534405)
Thank you for that, Jugular.

I should try to remember that in the current climate, both in here and in the world generally, we aren't allowed the luxury of vague defenses of our stupid opinions.

Freely stipulated: I don't always achieve the level of precision with language that I'm going for. I blame television. And Hilary, of course, because everything is her fault. :\

ah right, it's just a fake advantage. I got you now! :doh:

GMcAtee 01-06-2020 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3534318)
The PDGA keeps the members of our committee private. The only name published is mine, as chair. We have 8 members.

We recently had a vacancy and I had about 50 applications to join. There is absolutely interest in being on this committee.

I would enjoy being on this committee.

EarthRocker 01-06-2020 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robdeforge (Post 3534427)
ah right, it's just a fake advantage. I got you now! :doh:

Careful with that head, sir. Precious cargo contained within.

Not sure if I need to say it differently, but here goes:

I am very sorry, Robdeforge, for being careless. I really did not think of any advantage at all to missing the marked lie by an inch or two one way or the other. When it was pointed out to me that there is an advantage in not thinking about the lie, it put a whole new spin on it for me.
I could have spent a little time trying to explain that I DO think about the mark, even though I don't care to look at the success or failure rate of others to stay within the proscribed distance. I could have said a bunch of stuff about how intent is such a huge part of any infraction, be it in our game, or in societal norms; and that the key phrase in those Rules, in my estimation, is "willful or purposeful circumvention."
I could have gone on for two or three paragraphs, easy.

But I was lazy. Or pressed for time. Sometimes, the former is an inference resulting from the latter. I hope I have made it a bit clearer, so that you and I may continue in our fellowship without rancor. Or something.

In any case, I remain,

apologetically yours,

and your humble servant,

=ER=

brutalbrutus 01-06-2020 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMcAtee (Post 3534495)
I would enjoy being on this committee.

Deuce Newton would surely liven up that party...:D

ru4por 01-06-2020 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscFifty (Post 3534325)
Why? My membership should allow 100% transparency on chairs, members, etc.

I think it far more about being pragmatic and practical than transparent.

Orioles_Lefty 01-06-2020 11:02 PM

If the committee members’ identities are not publicly known that’s bad operations and a bad look. A secret cabal should not be making disciplinary decisions. The PDGA really makes me scratch my head sometimes.

_MTL_ 01-07-2020 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biscoe (Post 3534332)
Definitely disagree with the PDGA keeping members of ANY committee a secret.

I don't agree with it either. I'm just answering the why.

_MTL_ 01-07-2020 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty (Post 3534613)
A secret cabal should not be making disciplinary decisions.

Check out the process. The President is the only who ultimately makes the decision and that is absolutely not private.

robdeforge 01-07-2020 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3534522)
I could have said a bunch of stuff about how intent is such a huge part of any infraction, be it in our game, or in societal norms; and that the key phrase in those Rules, in my estimation, is "willful or purposeful circumvention."

that is just referring to player misconduct. you don't apply that standard of intent to calling each and every rule violation. :thmbup:

biscoe 01-07-2020 01:52 PM

IMO intent should have as little place in the rules of play as possible.

EarthRocker 01-07-2020 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robdeforge (Post 3534769)
that is just referring to player misconduct. you don't apply that standard of intent to calling each and every rule violation. :thmbup:

But...but...if the verbiage is "willful or purposeful circumvention of the rules," it's ALL about the intent. And as it applies to a silly foot fault, I feel like I can go ahead and shut my pie-hole now.

Y'all have an excellent day!

Hampstead 01-07-2020 03:51 PM

Discussions like this reinforce my interest in stand and deliver.

juju 01-07-2020 04:17 PM

pdga can suck on class DEEEZ NUTZ!

_MTL_ 01-07-2020 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hampstead (Post 3534811)
Discussions like this reinforce my interest in stand and deliver.

I'm sure you also don't support blocking in football, since people hold, defense in basketball, since people foul and passing in hockey since people pass illegally.

Hampstead 01-07-2020 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3534830)
I'm sure you also don't support blocking in football, since people hold, defense in basketball, since people foul and passing in hockey since people pass illegally.

Team sports with referees, not self policing individual activities. Apples to cumquats.

_MTL_ 01-07-2020 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hampstead (Post 3534834)
Team sports with referees, not self policing individual activities. Apples to cumquats.

You are right.

I forgot that stand and deliver would cure it all. There's no chance anyone would ever have a falling putt, not place their foot correctly not accidentally hit their disc on release.

Hampstead 01-07-2020 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3534836)
You are right.

I forgot that stand and deliver would cure it all. There's no chance anyone would ever have a falling putt, not place their foot correctly not accidentally hit their disc on release.

That's not the point. Time and time again people boast of their apathy in regards to opponents foot faulting. Far too few people want to be "that guy" to their card mates. But whatever. I just made a flippant comment mostly in response to how dull I find foot fault discussions. Of course, by doing so, I've been drawn into a dull foot fault discussion. This all could have been avoided if we had stand and deliver.


I'll leave my two cents on the counter.

_MTL_ 01-07-2020 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hampstead (Post 3534839)
TThis all could have been avoided if we had stand and deliver.


You are wrong.

Sorry.

Hampstead 01-07-2020 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _MTL_ (Post 3534840)
You are wrong.

Sorry.

I can promise you we wouldn't be doing this right now if we had stand and deliver.


I am right.


Not sorry.

robdeforge 01-07-2020 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthRocker (Post 3534792)
But...but...if the verbiage is "willful or purposeful circumvention of the rules," it's ALL about the intent. And as it applies to a silly foot fault, I feel like I can go ahead and shut my pie-hole now.

Y'all have an excellent day!

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. "willful or purposeful circumvention of the rules" does not need to happen to call a stance violation, out of bounds, courtesy violation, etc. If you break the rules, you get called on it, and receive either a penalty stroke or warning.

IF you break the rules on purpose, you can be disqualified from the tournament.

you have an excellent day too!


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