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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

seedlings 10-21-2020 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3646847)
Here's one way to feel rotation from leg extension:

Stand with feet about shoulder width apart and pointed forward, knees and hips slightly flexed/bent, torso centered. Basically a quarter- to half-squat, athletic position. Keeping weight centered, extend one leg while keeping the other leg bent in the same manner as the starting position. Due to the extension of the leg, the hips will rotate in that direction. Remember to keep weight centered; one can prevent rotation but must then tip in the direction of the flexed leg.

Another illustration for the DG swing would be to get into a comfortable athletic stance, lift your lead leg off of the ground, then, rotate your hips around the lead leg while it is off the ground. This is demonstrates how simple it is to rotate the hips before planting that lead leg. Wait- I mean how impossible it is.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3646859)
Another illustration for the DG swing would be to get into a comfortable athletic stance, lift your lead leg off of the ground, then, rotate your hips around the lead leg while it is off the ground. This is demonstrates how simple it is to rotate the hips before planting that lead leg. Wait- I mean how impossible it is.

Lol, I'm glad you edited this because I was seriously stretching my brain to understand.

sidewinder22 10-22-2020 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646692)
So you admit his hip is starting to turn?

As I've said several times before. It is not the intention though, is it?

"This is the FEEL that you want to cultivate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=4m15s

sidewinder22 10-22-2020 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646744)
I was doing your drills as a way to show the folly of them.

Please show me these drills you speak of. Looks like you created your own drill, the Topsy Turvey Drill.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3646849)
Do you need the whole foot completely flat on the ground to make an athletic move? When a running back cuts and pushes off the ground to change direction, does their whole foot have to be firmly flat on the ground? When a skier makes a quick turn, do they have to have the entire ski flat on the snow surface? When a hockey player or ice skater makes a move, do they have to have the entire blade flat on the ice?

Are we not talking about dynamic movement?

The debate is whether the hips rotate before or after brace isnt it? Just because the toe or part of the foot is touching ground doesn't mean they are bracing. There is a transition phase of weight going from rear to front and it is smooth and dynamic. The hips need to be rotating into strong brace. The power acceleration phase doesn't happen until that strong brace because your core muscles need something to brace against. At that moment where strong brace occurs the disc should either be in the power pocket position or almost in that position from reachback. Also at that moment you should have maximum hip to shoulder separation angles. That is the load that powerfully unwind the upper body or pulls it through into release. If you didn't start turning the hios until strong brace there is or can be no lag which provides the necessary power. Why? Because the hips continue to rotate all the way through weight transition. If one were to delay that until strong brace there is no lag time because the upper body starts to turn open at that point.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646924)
Please show me these drills you speak of. Looks like you created your own drill, the Topsy Turvey Drill.

Regardless of how ridiculous I looked (it wasn't a drill BTW) the whole point was to see if driving laterally created hip rotation. Who cares what my upper body was or wasnt doing, the hips weren't rotating. You of all people knows that you don't get hip rotation just from moving laterally.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646922)
As I've said several times before. It is not the intention though, is it?

"This is the FEEL that you want to cultivate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=4m15s

Whether it's intention or not, the fact is that the hips start to rotate just before brace not after brace.

sidewinder22 10-22-2020 02:37 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646938)
Regardless of how ridiculous I looked (it wasn't a drill BTW) the whole point was to see if driving laterally created hip rotation. Who cares what my upper body was or wasnt doing, the hips weren't rotating. You of all people knows that you don't get hip rotation just from moving laterally.

It did create hip rotation even though you drove more upward than lateral. You are using all your might trying to resist that hip rotation as your arms counter the rotation, just like walking, instead of committing to the swing.

Your rear femur/knee starts pointed away from target and ends up pointed at camera. Pelvis is closed taking off rear leg and open landing on front leg.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1603344764

sidewinder22 10-22-2020 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3646025)
When discussing levers, do you have any solid evidence that lever length doesn't matter? I'm talking about evidence that is based in physics, biomechanics, etc. (not personal beliefs or small sample size anecdotes)

The equation v=2piRF seems to say that longer levers would lead to greater velocity. Is that something you can speak to?

The texts/studies I linked above: can you refute them legitimately?

Also still waiting on your answers to these questions regarding levers:

Why is it easier to pry something with a longer bar?

Why is it easier to turn a nut/bolt with a longer wrench?

"This study shows that body height, body weight, hand length and arm span positively influence to BTV(Ball Throwing Velocity) during the 3-step running throw in team handball."
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1118741.pdf


RoDeO 10-22-2020 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646943)
It did create hip rotation even though you drove more upward than lateral. You are using all your might trying to resist that hip rotation as your arms counter the rotation, just like walking, instead of committing to the swing.

Your rear femur/knee starts pointed away from target and ends up pointed at camera. Pelvis is closed taking off rear leg and open landing on front leg.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1603344764

I wasn't resisting no rotation. It's impossible to resist something that isn't present. I intentionally didn't try to initiate hip rotation in my shift to see if coming into the brace were to cause a rotation. None was present at all. I did it again and same result

https://youtu.be/ZwaFNtjvOtE

sidewinder22 10-22-2020 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646949)
I wasn't resisting no rotation. It's impossible to resist something that isn't present. I intentionally didn't try to initiate hip rotation in my shift to see if coming into the brace were to cause a rotation. None was present at all. I did it again and same result

https://youtu.be/ZwaFNtjvOtE

Still rotating.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646950)
Still rotating.

Umm....no.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 03:22 AM

Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

SaROCaM 10-22-2020 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646936)
The debate is whether the hips rotate before or after brace isnt it? Just because the toe or part of the foot is touching ground doesn't mean they are bracing. There is a transition phase of weight going from rear to front and it is smooth and dynamic. The hips need to be rotating into strong brace. The power acceleration phase doesn't happen until that strong brace because your core muscles need something to brace against. At that moment where strong brace occurs the disc should either be in the power pocket position or almost in that position from reachback. Also at that moment you should have maximum hip to shoulder separation angles. That is the load that powerfully unwind the upper body or pulls it through into release. If you didn't start turning the hios until strong brace there is or can be no lag which provides the necessary power. Why? Because the hips continue to rotate all the way through weight transition. If one were to delay that until strong brace there is no lag time because the upper body starts to turn open at that point.

It isn't clear that you know what bracing is. Anyone wanna sort this out?

From what I have seen, your theory of sequencing is supported by your opinion and subjective conclusions from observations you made.

The other theory is supported by data from biomechanics researchers and technology that measures body positions and movement in real time. Also people who either throw 500'+ and/or have coached people to throw better and/or have relevant experience/knowledge seem to disagree regularly with what you say.

If you can point to research, electronic measurement, and/or some other independent sources to support your position, that would be helpful.

I'm not 100% saying that you are wrong, just that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

RandyC 10-22-2020 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646954)
Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

I donīt think anyone has said that there is no rotation in your hips. It is a dynamic movement. What has been said is that you do not rotate from your rear leg it is a completely different animal. You are advocating rotation of the rear leg as a power source and that is not how you throw nor create power. The rotator muscles in your hip are small and weak compared to abduction adduction which uses glutes and hamstrings.

NoseDownKing 10-22-2020 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646954)
Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

When did he say that discgolfers don't rotate? Have you listened to anything in the past month I swear to god

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

RoDeO 10-22-2020 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3646956)
It isn't clear that you know what bracing is. Anyone wanna sort this out?

From what I have seen, your theory of sequencing is supported by your opinion and subjective conclusions from observations you made.

The other theory is supported by data from biomechanics researchers and technology that measures body positions and movement in real time. Also people who either throw 500'+ and/or have coached people to throw better and/or have relevant experience/knowledge seem to disagree regularly with what you say.

If you can point to research, electronic measurement, and/or some other independent sources to support your position, that would be helpful.

I'm not 100% saying that you are wrong, just that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

Bracing is when your lead foot braces your weight. There is a strong brace moment when all of your weight has maximum pressure under your foot. Some players have a rather abrupt strong brace like Paige Pierce where you see more pressure and leg straightening and thus less lateral weight follow through and others more smooth and and less abrupt where there is less pressure and a bent leg and more lateral weight follow through like Paul Mcbeth.

Look at the video evidence. Video don't lie. I wished I knew how to capture a stillframe from video be cause I could then post pictures of top pros all in that same position of when their foot braces in that strong brace (where all the weight is firmly on the lead leg) and their hips have all substantially turned towards open and the shoulders are still facing rearward.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3646962)
I donīt think anyone has said that there is no rotation in your hips. It is a dynamic movement. What has been said is that you do not rotate from your rear leg it is a completely different animal. You are advocating rotation of the rear leg as a power source and that is not how you throw nor create power. The rotator muscles in your hip are small and weak compared to abduction adduction which uses glutes and hamstrings.

Whichever muscle groups are involved is a topic for discussion on its own. The important part is that the rotation of the hips begin just before the brace. This is important because if a player is led to believe that no rotation at all happens until brace then they have troubles learning how to rotate and get the hips involved and the right sequencing invloved. This was simply proven by your one leg throw. In that throw your hip never leads rotation like it should. It's also the reason why you can't balance solely on your front leg and swing a bat with power. The hip rotation is what leads the rotation and it must be initiated before the weight shift occurs.

bsammons 10-22-2020 10:39 AM

Rodeo, I’m gonna put this as politely as I can.

You’re incorrect in your assessment of the throw.
I posted the free body diagram and written up assessment of the throw and it was completely ignored.
Nobody is “staying with you”, nobody is waiting to see your idea or drill that’s going to radically change perspectives of the throw.
We aren’t being arrogant, we aren’t being snobby. Any time we’re presented with information and evidence that points contrary to our beliefs we are the first to embrace it.
If you want to discuss the throw I will happily direct message you and am open to hearing every bit of the theory you have of biomechanics. In fact I’ll even FaceTime you if you so like. But please, for the sake of this entire sub forum. Look at the evidence and look at the physics and try to reason with the countless people who have selflessly tried to point you in the right direction.
-bsammons

SaROCaM 10-22-2020 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647009)
Bracing is when your lead foot braces your weight. There is a strong brace moment when all of your weight has maximum pressure under your foot. Some players have a rather abrupt strong brace like Paige Pierce where you see more pressure and leg straightening and thus less lateral weight follow through and others more smooth and and less abrupt where there is less pressure and a bent leg and more lateral weight follow through like Paul Mcbeth.

Look at the video evidence. Video don't lie. I wished I knew how to capture a stillframe from video be cause I could then post pictures of top pros all in that same position of when their foot braces in that strong brace (where all the weight is firmly on the lead leg) and their hips have all substantially turned towards open and the shoulders are still facing rearward.

So you're saying bracing has to do with weight? I was under the impression that bracing has to do with momentum. Anyone else care to speak to this?

Also I still think that "strong brace" is a strange construct. You hear people say "brace yourself," not "strong brace yourself." You hear "brace for impact," not "strong brace for impact."

Not sure a still frame would help since it isn't clear whether you were able to make a GIF that stopped at the correct point.

seedlings 10-22-2020 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3647060)
So you're saying bracing has to do with weight? I was under the impression that bracing has to do with momentum. Anyone else care to speak to this?

Also I still think that "strong brace" is a strange construct. You hear people say "brace yourself," not "strong brace yourself." You hear "brace for impact," not "strong brace for impact."

Not sure a still frame would help since it isn't clear whether you were able to make a GIF that stopped at the correct point.


The nanoseconds between the brace and the strong brace are literally the most important part of proper form for those who can throw over 500’.


Sarcasm

RandyC 10-22-2020 10:55 AM

This is getting quite tiresome, you cannot produce a decent throw using your method and it literally shows in your own effort to throw the disc. You ignore everything that you cannot answer and your only argument is "It must be like this because I am unable to do it."

Since we are ignoring all biomechanics, lets discuss just raw distance. Why is it that I am able to throw as far as you from a one leg with a putter when you are using so-called correct kinetic sequence and a high-speed driver?

RowingBoats 10-22-2020 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647022)
Whichever muscle groups are involved is a topic for discussion on its own. The important part is that the rotation of the hips begin just before the brace. This is important because if a player is led to believe that no rotation at all happens until brace then they have troubles learning how to rotate and get the hips involved and the right sequencing invloved. This was simply proven by your one leg throw. In that throw your hip never leads rotation like it should. It's also the reason why you can't balance solely on your front leg and swing a bat with power. The hip rotation is what leads the rotation and it must be initiated before the weight shift occurs.

I just don't understand. There seems to be some deliberate line in the sand you have drawn, and simply want to do battle here. Judging by other responses, you seem to evoke the same reactions pretty often, but this thread just keeps going, and going...and I think I know why.

You clearly do not believe it, but there are a lot of people here who understand exactly how you are thinking and swinging, because that is something they also did. There is a certain built in sympathy learning this particular swing, because, oddly enough, as complex as all of this sounds when you start...retrospectively, this concept is so absurdly simple. Once you start to implement the concept of building lateral momentum, bracing and extending the lead knee to crush the hit, a whole lot of clicks go off. Suddenly you have an actual path forward with all of this. Finding ways to get your body to generate more lateral momentum to use at the end is actually quite natural feeling. At least this is how it has all felt to me.

I really just urge you to come on out of Plato's cave. Stop watching slow motion videos on the cave wall to attempt to back up a preconceived notion. Come out of the cave and start moving your actual body around with an open mind, and you might be a bit surprised.

NoseDownKing 10-22-2020 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3647066)
This is getting quite tiresome, you cannot produce a decent throw using your method and it literally shows in your own effort to throw the disc. You ignore everything that you cannot answer and your only argument is "It must be like this because I am unable to do it."

Since we are ignoring all biomechanics, lets discuss just raw distance. Why is it that I am able to throw as far as you from a one leg with a putter when you are using so-called correct kinetic sequence and a high-speed driver?

He's going to tell you that you have developed the muscles to throw far.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

UhhNegative 10-22-2020 12:33 PM

Can everyone just stop posting in this thread? Here's the big picture of what's happening: Rodeo is spouting nonsense no one believes and is unimportant anyway, everyone is actually trying to explain how a good throw works, Rodeo is not listening. This isn't productive or useful for anyone.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3647066)
This is getting quite tiresome, you cannot produce a decent throw using your method and it literally shows in your own effort to throw the disc. You ignore everything that you cannot answer and your only argument is "It must be like this because I am unable to do it."

Since we are ignoring all biomechanics, lets discuss just raw distance. Why is it that I am able to throw as far as you from a one leg with a putter when you are using so-called correct kinetic sequence and a high-speed driver?

I doubt you can throw a putter balanced on one leg as far as I can throw a driver from two legs.

NoseDownKing 10-22-2020 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647148)
I doubt you can throw a putter balanced on one leg as far as I can throw a driver from two legs.

Are you saying that he is not in balance?

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

RoDeO 10-22-2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3647155)
Are you saying that he is not in balance?

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

I'm saying he can't throw a putter as far balanced on his front leg only as I can from an x step.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 12:57 PM

This is what I am advocating. It's called hip rotation initiation before brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2020/f__zGe.gif

RowingBoats 10-22-2020 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647161)
This is what I am advocating. It's called hip rotation initiation before brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2020/f__zGe.gif

Again, there are two options.

1.) You believe this clip shows that in the lateral move into the brace, incidental hip rotation will occur. No one has argued against this, and no one gives a ****.

2.) You believe he is initiating rotation with the rear leg and will continuously rotate from this frame. Everyone has told you this is wrong, in 100 different ways, over and over. You are wrong.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3647191)
Again, there are two options.

1.) You believe this clip shows that in the lateral move into the brace, incidental hip rotation will occur. No one has argued against this, and no one gives a ****.

2.) You believe he is initiating rotation with the rear leg and will continuously rotate from this frame. Everyone has told you this is wrong, in 100 different ways, over and over. You are wrong.

Logically, your 1 and 2 positions contradict. We know that once hip rotation begins it continues without stopping into release of the disc. Therefore, if #1 is true then you must be wrong with #2 and therefore I am correct. If I am wrong, then you must agree that what you said in #1 is wrong.

bsammons 10-22-2020 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647201)
Logically, your 1 and 2 positions contradict. We know that once hip rotation begins it continues without stopping into release of the disc. Therefore, if #1 is true then you must be wrong with #2 and therefore I am correct. If I am wrong, then you must agree that what you said in #1 is wrong.

Since you are very set in your method then I feel a few questions couldn’t hurt to be asked.
1. Where does the power come from? Of the throw? Be specific, with specific muscle groups and how they work.
2. Why does it matter so much when the hip begins rotation?
3. What is the axis of rotation in your opinion?

RowingBoats 10-22-2020 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647201)
Logically, your 1 and 2 positions contradict. We know that once hip rotation begins it continues without stopping into release of the disc. Therefore, if #1 is true then you must be wrong with #2 and therefore I am correct. If I am wrong, then you must agree that what you said in #1 is wrong.

Like I said, there is a certain sympathy that many people have regarding this topic, because there is an undeniable retrospective 'OH' that occurs. You sure do your best to nuke that sympathy though.

Good luck.

RoDeO 10-22-2020 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3647204)
Since you are very set in your method then I feel a few questions couldn’t hurt to be asked.
1. Where does the power come from? Of the throw? Be specific, with specific muscle groups and how they work.
2. Why does it matter so much when the hip begins rotation?
3. What is the axis of rotation in your opinion?

I will be honest in that I don't know exactly the names of every muscle in the body and how they work but when I practice throwing distance I feel a lot in my gluteus and hip muscles. I also feel it in my quads, lower back and lats and deltoid on the throwing side. There's really a lot of muscles involved but those are the ones I feel the most when I throw. My legs are usually the tiredest after throwing. I have noticed that I have gotten larger more defined muscles around my butt, upper legs and hips since I started playing. I don't really feel anything in my arm, I just feel like it's being pulled through.

It matters to know about when hip rotation begins because a lot of new players all arm their disc and have a hard time getting the hips involved. If you get the hips involved at the right time you can feel how the body can pull the disc rather than wonder if your hips do anything. I started pkaying right and threw all arm and had a hard time getting the hips to engage. Then I threw left and instantly felt the difference.

The axis of rotation is around the spine area.

RowingBoats 10-22-2020 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647249)
The axis of rotation is around the spine area.


Here comes round 10. Rodeo's new thread "The Line of the Spine".

timothy42b 10-22-2020 10:34 PM

While this topic is argumentative, it does point out some areas most of remain confused about including me.
The ball golf videos posted recently seem to agree. In a two arm swing lateral motion of about an inch precedes a violent torso rotation with the axis of rotation aligned with the front leg and hip and accompanied by strong torque forces from the front leg.
Exactly how to accomplish that is not clear.
So it's not unexpected there's some misunderstanding.

I suspect the counterbalance of the rear foot may be to resist the side force of rotation.

For me it doesn't matter yet. Concentrating on landing on the front leg feels like it's finally starting to take after a couple years working on it, and I'm getting enough more distance to par some holes I could only bogey. I don't get any of that rotational whip yet, still working.

sidewinder22 10-23-2020 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647161)
This is what I am advocating. It's called hip rotation initiation before brace.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-22-2020/f__zGe.gif

Paul doesn't twitch until he is in strong brace with his front hip rising. The only way the butt can turn like that is if you are braced on the front side resisting going targetward pushing away from the target.

sidewinder22 10-23-2020 03:32 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/w_OHo_.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2020/2MVEPk.gif

sidewinder22 10-23-2020 03:42 AM

Wish the audio was better quality on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkP-wbZ_47Q#t=3m20s

seedlings 10-23-2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy42b (Post 3647360)
While this topic is argumentative, it does point out some areas most of remain confused about including me.
The ball golf videos posted recently seem to agree. In a two arm swing lateral motion of about an inch precedes a violent torso rotation with the axis of rotation aligned with the front leg and hip and accompanied by strong torque forces from the front leg.
Exactly how to accomplish that is not clear.
So it's not unexpected there's some misunderstanding.

I suspect the counterbalance of the rear foot may be to resist the side force of rotation.

For me it doesn't matter yet. Concentrating on landing on the front leg feels like it's finally starting to take after a couple years working on it, and I'm getting enough more distance to par some holes I could only bogey. I don't get any of that rotational whip yet, still working.

All of these movements and drills are not prescriptions for success. Rather, they describe motions that your body wants to use to 1) keep itself balanced and 2) meet the brain’s instructed power and line. Bodies are built similarly, but not identical, so there is a range of motion, or variance of mechanics on either side of the ideal.


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