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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RandyC 10-24-2020 01:05 PM

Guess I should add that there are few people, like Tiger before who did twist their back. It is NOT meant to be twisted or you will definently get an injury sooner or later.

scooby snack 10-24-2020 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by discerdoo (Post 3647779)
That's quite a manifesto. It seems to be a matter of life and death that you somehow convince someone that there may be a miniscule "twitch of the hips" a nanosecond before "strong brace".

Why?

You probably could have developed a cure for covid with the time and energy you've spent on this thread. Obsessive much?

RoDeO likes taking an opposing view and arguing endlessly with anyone he can bait.

RoDeO 10-24-2020 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy42b (Post 3647835)
Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.

Every good disc golfer rotates the hips and torso before the shoulders.

seedlings 10-24-2020 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647895)
Every good disc golfer rotates the hips and torso before the shoulders.

A really great thread would be documenting your progress in videos, giving small teaching lessons, and watching the nuevo disc golf form really catch on! The market is hot right now. Might be able to get a sponsor to get your revolutionary form off the ground. People deserve to hear this. Selling yourself short, and the entire disc golf community, by only using this thread for promotion. You can do it!

RoDeO 10-24-2020 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3647899)
A really great thread would be documenting your progress in videos, giving small teaching lessons, and watching the nuevo disc golf form really catch on! The market is hot right now. Might be able to get a sponsor to get your revolutionary form off the ground. People deserve to hear this. Selling yourself short, and the entire disc golf community, by only using this thread for promotion. You can do it!

Love you bro
love you

txmxer 10-24-2020 09:48 PM

Iíve learned stuff about form from this thread.

Silver linings.

sidewinder22 10-25-2020 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy42b (Post 3647835)
Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.

Maybe in the modern golf swing theory they do that and those are the players getting injured.




sidewinder22 10-25-2020 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647664)
The problem with the door frame drill is that the motions he walks through doesn't mimic the actual disc golf throw. He shows himself leaning his weight onto his front side with his butt facing the target at that point and pulling with his arm. But that isn't what happens in a disc golf throw. In a disc golf throw the arm doesn't pull against the brace of the foot. Well, I guess it can, if you are strong arming (once again another way of showing if one is using arms or hips) the disc. In a disc golf throw, done properly, the rotation of the hips and torso whip the arm through into release. That hip and torso pull against the brace but its a completely different feeling.

You appear to be making up your own version of the door frame drill like your topsy turvy lateral shift drill you made up. The arm is doing nothing in door frame drill, it's being pulled taut like bow arrow, and the plant foot is barely on the ground if it isn't striding forward, so it can't be pulling against the front foot/brace. The rear leg is doing everything in door frame drill and when you release from the door frame your front heel plants and arm is sling shot or whipped forward automatically assuming you wind up into back leg.
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647823)
In general, most people brace with the whole foot down. There are some instances where the brace is more floaty. In those cases it actually bolsters my position that hip rotation initiation happens before brace. Sidewinder emphasizes this crush the can moment as there being a solid heel down pressure brace moment. Almost exclusively though, hip rotation begins before even the ball of the lead foot plants.

It's almost like you are seeing what I am showing and trying to adjust the goalposts to make the brace happen before it actually happens. Take my baseball swing GIF for example- his hips are clearly rotating before his toe even makes solid contact. You can't think his toe is the brace can you?

You seem to ignore what I'm saying and make up your own fantastical arguments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvF6eW-by8#t=2m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQMV3oHs6Ug#t=2m52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKwNo_5K5c

RoDeO 10-26-2020 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3648022)
You appear to be making up your own version of the door frame drill like your topsy turvy lateral shift drill you made up. The arm is doing nothing in door frame drill, it's being pulled taut like bow arrow, and the plant foot is barely on the ground if it isn't striding forward, so it can't be pulling against the front foot/brace. The rear leg is doing everything in door frame drill and when you release from the door frame your front heel plants and arm is sling shot or whipped forward automatically assuming you wind up into back leg.

You seem to ignore what I'm saying and make up your own fantastical arguments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvF6eW-by8#t=2m42s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQMV3oHs6Ug#t=2m52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKwNo_5K5c

I never made up a drill. A drill is something you do to get better at something. I was showing how the lateral shift by itself doesn't create rotation.
My thought is more along the lines of thinking a rope is attached to the backside of you front shoulder and its coiled around a giant top in back of your rear leg and you have to rotate your body to pull that rope to get the top to spin.

SaROCaM 10-26-2020 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3647823)
There are some instances where the brace is more floaty.

First there was "strong brace." Now there's "floaty brace."

It's like playing Mad Libs:

_______ brace is the next step in the throwing sequence.
adjective

RoDeO 10-26-2020 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3648244)
First there was "strong brace." Now there's "floaty brace."

It's like playing Mad Libs:

_______ brace is the next step in the throwing sequence.
adjective

There's times watching McBeth throw where his brace appears kind of floaty. There isn't really a pivot area the brace leg is pivoting on at times- kind of floats around.

The bottom line is there is always a brace moment where it is strong enough to throw the disc well. It's just that it's not always as strong in player to player and from throw to throw.

dreadlock86 10-26-2020 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3648243)
My thought is more along the lines of thinking a rope is attached to the backside of you front shoulder and its coiled around a giant top in back of your rear leg and you have to rotate your body to pull that rope to get the top to spin.


ahahaha :doh:

well that just explains it perfectly. you have to rotate your body... so that your rear leg pivots and rotates... so that your shoulders can rotate.

:clap: you've outdone yourself!

sidewinder22 10-27-2020 08:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZyIofeKo_U#t=2m17s

RFrance 10-27-2020 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3648243)
My thought is more along the lines of thinking a rope is attached to the backside of you front shoulder and its coiled around a giant top in back of your rear leg and you have to rotate your body to pull that rope to get the top to spin.

In this video Mike Austin demonstrates with a rope that the ďswing is initiated by a coordinated action of the body, arms, hands, legs, and feet...Ē


RoDeO 10-27-2020 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649225)

Yes, so much of what he said is true. The whole dynamic weight shift that naturally turns the hips during that shift. No shift then turn, just shift and turn at the same time.

sidewinder22 10-28-2020 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649311)
No shift then turn, just shift and turn at the same time.

My lizard brain can't think about both at same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=1m30s

RandyC 10-28-2020 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649365)
My lizard brain can't think about both at same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=1m30s

Just need to condition those muscles so you can resists that 30-40 pounds of arm swinging in front you. Super easy, super effortless and very healthy. You are absolutely not going to injure your back, knee, shoulder and elbow doing that.

ninjaedit:
incase there are more RoDeos out there I would advice against this. You are absolutely going to injure your back, knee, shoulder and elbow.

sidewinder22 10-28-2020 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3648243)
I never made up a drill. A drill is something you do to get better at something. I was showing how the lateral shift by itself doesn't create rotation.

But you did create rotation. You were using all your might to resist rotation.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2020/twYPgw.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3648243)
My thought is more along the lines of thinking a rope is attached to the backside of you front shoulder and its coiled around a giant top in back of your rear leg and you have to rotate your body to pull that rope to get the top to spin.

Not sure I follow. You spin a top by pulling in straight line. Wouldn't just moving the shoulder away from the hip spin it?

txmxer 10-28-2020 09:43 AM

Throwing is Newtonian physics. Converting momentum to force.

Following this thread has been very enlightening.

The body moves linearly as possible to a hard stop and the throwing motion is the conversion of the bodies MO to a force applied to the disc. The more efficient that conversion the more force and ideally accurate distance.

It’s somewhat like a car crash dummy test.

Hips need to be shifted forward or else half the mass in the MO will transfer energy to the foot/ground. The rotation of the upper body. Is intended to increase the distance that the disk has to accelerate and thus improve energy transfer.

The back leg kick is a counter balance to the upper body shift.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649365)
My lizard brain can't think about both at same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=1m30s

That its a dynamic weight shift and hip turn?

RoDeO 10-28-2020 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649368)
But you did create rotation. You were using all your might to resist rotation.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2020/twYPgw.gif


Not sure I follow. You spin a top by pulling in straight line. Wouldn't just moving the shoulder away from the hip spin it?

There is no resisting at all- 0%! You make it sound like the harder your shift the more your hips will rotate. So not true. One can only turn the hips if he initiates that turn during the lateral shift. It's a dynamic turn- it doesn't all of a sudden happen.

The idea with spinning the top with the backside of the shoulder is to create enough torque by the torso to powerfully turn the shoulders which lag behind. We are after all whipping the arm with rotational Force aren't we?

seedlings 10-28-2020 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649427)
That its a dynamic weight shift and hip turn?

From the full reach back
1) Shift weight/butt/hips linear toward target
2) Plant lead leg
3) Turn hips around plant

Also note his comments about one leg drill in the video.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649433)
You make it sound like the harder your shift the more your hips will rotate. So not true.

The more powerful the lateral shift becomes, the more momentum there is to brace against. This directly increases the power you can send up the kinetic chain.

seedlings 10-28-2020 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649441)
The more powerful the lateral shift becomes, the more momentum there is to brace against. This directly increases the power you can send up the kinetic chain.

Not if you rotate your hips first.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3649456)
Not if you rotate your hips first.

Exactly. Just sitting here thinking about it...

If rotation is believed to be the engine of the power, the mentality of the swing is to begin rotating off the back leg with the spine as the axis. Won't the action of swinging your arm out from the axis actually slow the movement down from when it starts until the hit? I am not 100% sure on this, and would love to see real scientific data on it.

If rotation were the ideal goal, I believe the swing would be more like a 360. People would do something like a figure skater spin, bringing it all 'in', then eject out of that?

RoDeO 10-28-2020 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649475)
Exactly. Just sitting here thinking about it...

If rotation is believed to be the engine of the power, the mentality of the swing is to begin rotating off the back leg with the spine as the axis. Won't the action of swinging your arm out from the axis actually slow the movement down from when it starts until the hit? I am not 100% sure on this, and would love to see real scientific data on it.

If rotation were the ideal goal, I believe the swing would be more like a 360. People would do something like a figure skater spin, bringing it all 'in', then eject out of that?

Ummm... That's the whole idea- to create a lot of rotation. Bringing the disc into your belly/chest increases the spin, that's why you do that and then you eject it out.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3649435)
From the full reach back
1) Shift weight/butt/hips linear toward target
2) Plant lead leg
3) Turn hips around plant

Also note his comments about one leg drill in the video.

I see it more as
1. Keep weight back, butt pointing forwards/ hips facing more rearward
2. As the lead leg comes into plant the hips start rotating into brace, shoulders stay turned rearward
3. Brace, continue to rotate hips which rotate shoulders and bring disc into body
4. Accelerate rotation and eject disc.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649506)
Ummm... That's the whole idea- to create a lot of rotation. Bringing the disc into your belly/chest increases the spin, that's why you do that and then you eject it out.

I don't do that, at all. My swing is getting wider if anything.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649523)
I don't do that, at all. My swing is getting wider if anything.

By "wider" do you mean the disc is further away from your body when it's in the power pocket?

SaROCaM 10-28-2020 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649508)
I see it more as
1. Keep weight back, butt pointing forwards/ hips facing more rearward
2. As the lead leg comes into plant the hips start rotating into brace, shoulders stay turned rearward
3. Brace, continue to rotate hips which rotate shoulders and bring disc into body
4. Accelerate rotation and eject disc.

Let's see a video.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649529)
By "wider" do you mean the disc is further away from your body when it's in the power pocket?

I will have to start filming myself soon, not totally sure. Mostly the angle of my upper arm from the torso, that angle has increased.

I am curious if I am wrong about this. Does anyone else agree that the power pocket is about bringing mass 'in' to facilitate more spin? To me this concept doesn't enter into my swing, that I can tell at least.

bsammons 10-28-2020 01:04 PM

I don’t know how many times this can be said.

Rotation is NOT the end goal. The point of the x step is to leverage your lower body with gravity against the disc and arm.

If rotation was the goal, then we would not see an X step-we would see them running 90 degrees away from the target, planting, and then all that linear velocity transformed into rotational velocity, ejecting the disc out - just like a slingshot using gravity in space.

The whole point of the forward run-up and x step is to get the hips in position to be leveraged against the disc.

Again, think about pulling a post out of the ground. That’s the feel. We aren’t trying to be ice skaters, we’re trying to be lumberjacks/Olympic hammer throwers and leverage the body against the disc.

bsammons 10-28-2020 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649543)
I will have to start filming myself soon, not totally sure. Mostly the angle of my upper arm from the torso, that angle has increased.

I am curious if I am wrong about this. Does anyone else agree that the power pocket is about bringing mass 'in' to facilitate more spin? To me this concept doesn't enter into my swing, that I can tell at least.

The power pocket isn’t about bringing the disc in. It’s simply keeping tension between the disc and the body with the shoulder muscles and lower body, and waiting to engage the muscles in the arm until the point where you can maximize their effectiveness and leverage/torque.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3649553)
The power pocket isnít about bringing the disc in. Itís simply keeping tension on the body with the shoulder muscles, and waiting to engage the muscles in the arm until the point where y can maximize their effectiveness and leverage/torque.

That's how it feels to me as well, just wanted to make sure I am not off base.

Rodeo, how do you square your thinking with the form you are trying to shoehorn it into? Why AREN'T you doing like a 720 twist, spinning as fast as possible then ejecting it, if you are correct?

RoDeO 10-28-2020 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3649532)
Let's see a video.

https://youtu.be/GeIMGsFXLCU

RoDeO 10-28-2020 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649543)
I will have to start filming myself soon, not totally sure. Mostly the angle of my upper arm from the torso, that angle has increased.

I am curious if I am wrong about this. Does anyone else agree that the power pocket is about bringing mass 'in' to facilitate more spin? To me this concept doesn't enter into my swing, that I can tell at least.

Eagle Mcmahon may be the best at this in my opinion. He gets that disc in so tight to his body in the power pocket. It often hits his body it's so close. What allows him to get so close is his angle of his torso. That increases the ability of the torso to spin faster which in turn ejects the disc faster. Try this, no joke-
Hold your arm straight out from your body and try to turn and throw with a straight out arm from your body. You will feel a lot of resistance in trying to move that greater mass further away from your body. That resistance is slowing your rotation down. As you bring the arm and disc in closer to the axis of rotation you decrease the mass and in turn it speeds up rotation. Distance is wholly dependent upon rotational speed of the axis.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsammons (Post 3649552)
I donít know how many times this can be said.

Rotation is NOT the end goal. The point of the x step is to leverage your lower body with gravity against the disc and arm.

If rotation was the goal, then we would not see an X step-we would see them running 90 degrees away from the target, planting, and then all that linear velocity transformed into rotational velocity, ejecting the disc out - just like a slingshot using gravity in space.

The whole point of the forward run-up and x step is to get the hips in position to be leveraged against the disc.

Again, think about pulling a post out of the ground. Thatís the feel. We arenít trying to be ice skaters, weíre trying to be lumberjacks/Olympic hammer throwers and leverage the body against the disc.

If you were all arming it then yes, you are correct. But we aren't pulling the disc with our arm, we are pulling it with a torso that is rotating around an axis and using the arm as a whip. That's different altogether.

txmxer 10-28-2020 01:36 PM

Distance is primarily dependent on velocity at the point of release.

If you follow the disc looking down from above, it moves in a generally straight path from start to finish.

SaROCaM 10-28-2020 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649562)

Try again.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649558)
That's how it feels to me as well, just wanted to make sure I am not off base.

Rodeo, how do you square your thinking with the form you are trying to shoehorn it into? Why AREN'T you doing like a 720 twist, spinning as fast as possible then ejecting it, if you are correct?

Ejecting the disc back hand is about accelerating the disc around an axis into release. The body is quite sufficient to rotate up to 360 degrees to do that sufficiently. Don't some max distance throwers spin around 360 degrees?


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