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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-28-2020 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3649577)
Distance is primarily dependent on velocity at the point of release.

If you follow the disc looking down from above, it moves in a generally straight path from start to finish.

Velocity at release, backhand, is dependent entirely upon the rotational velocity of the torso around an axis.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649631)
Ejecting the disc back hand is about accelerating the disc around an axis into release. The body is quite sufficient to rotate up to 360 degrees to do that sufficiently. Don't some max distance throwers spin around 360 degrees?

If the arm is extending outward from the spine axis, as you understand the throw, how is it accelerating? Figure skaters do this to slow rotation down, not speed it up. If the hit is supposed to generate the most acceleration, how is it even possible in your model of the swing?

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649673)
If the arm is extending outward from the spine axis, as you understand the throw, how is it accelerating? Figure skaters do this to slow rotation down, not speed it up. If the hit is supposed to generate the most acceleration, how is it even possible in your model of the swing?

Just for the record, I do understand how to throw a disc the way you are describing, and have done it quite a bit since this thread started. I can throw it relatively far this way even, but...it just feels like a brick wall. There is no where for this technique to go, there is no more momentum to 'trap', which the other paradigm allows a huge pathway to build on.

When I spin early, there is no 'hit' in the swing at all really. I honestly believe the swing is decelerating, not accelerating. There is no moment where you catch the disc and really hit it hard in the pocket. It feels quite literally impotent.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3649673)
If the arm is extending outward from the spine axis, as you understand the throw, how is it accelerating? Figure skaters do this to slow rotation down, not speed it up. If the hit is supposed to generate the most acceleration, how is it even possible in your model of the swing?

As you rotate your hips your shoulders are still back or lagging behind in rotation. As you begin to bring the disc in and rotate the shoulders you begin to accelerate that torso rotational velocity. Because the mass of the arm and disc are pulled in to the power pocket during this acceleration speed it allows the torso to rotate powerfully or quicker. Then, almost ad quick as the disc was pulled in and the torso reached max acceleration the arm begins to extend and that torque you created thrusts the disc outwards and it gains so much mass upon ejection you can't hold onto it and it rips out.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 04:15 PM

I have really been practicing on increasing my rotational acceleration velocity these last two weeks during our lame windy cold weather and yesterday and today the wind finally stopped, the sun came out and I was throwing 30 feet farther on average than before.

sidewinder22 10-28-2020 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649722)
I have really been practicing on increasing my rotational acceleration velocity

How do you practice that?

RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649859)
How do you practice that?

Underweight training. In this case that means practicing the swing, full power, with no disc, just the weight of the arm. I've been doing about 50 each evening.

NoseDownKing 10-28-2020 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649873)
Underweight training. In this case that means practicing the swing, full power, with no disc, just the weight of the arm. I've been doing about 50 each evening.

Oh. I also like to injure myself for fun.

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RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3649888)
Oh. I also like to injure myself for fun.

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Well, I guess if you were doing something wrong then yeah, probably so.

NoseDownKing 10-28-2020 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649892)
Well, I guess if you were doing something wrong then yeah, probably so.

Keep on doing what you're doing. I'm sure it will help you throw 500 feet in no time!

No it won't...

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RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3649893)
Keep on doing what you're doing. I'm sure it will help you throw 500 feet in no time!

No it won't...

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Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I've been practicing my driving without a disc for quite some time and no injuries yet.

NoseDownKing 10-28-2020 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649898)
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I've been practicing my driving without a disc for quite some time and no injuries yet.

Yet. Exactly. You've been playing for a little more than three months.

And it's not my opinion. Throwing full power with no disc is ridicilous.

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RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoseDownKing (Post 3649902)
Yet. Exactly. You've been playing for a little more than three months.

And it's not my opinion. Throwing full power with no disc is ridicilous.

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Everything I do or say people think it's ridiculous. And yet, Im progressing with my game relatively fast, and, without injury. So either I'm just strangely defying all odds, or, doing something pretty well.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:51 PM

Note to baseball players- don't swing a lighter bat, you could injury yourself.

NoseDownKing 10-28-2020 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649906)
Everything I do or say people think it's ridiculous. And yet, Im progressing with my game relatively fast, and, without injury. So either I'm just strangely defying all odds, or, doing something pretty well.

Man don't be so indenial. All the years of study that experts have done. Like real experts by the way. Just an insane amount of study done yet you still think your new way is correct? If it were correct more people would have talked about it being another way to throw the disc.

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RoDeO 10-28-2020 06:59 PM

And now that it's winter pretty much I do overweight training with overalls, long johns and the thick coat. Was out yesterday morning throwing like that in 0 degree weather. I know all that weighs more than 5 ounces on the arm.

sidewinder22 10-28-2020 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649873)
Underweight training. In this case that means practicing the swing, full power, with no disc, just the weight of the arm. I've been doing about 50 each evening.

I'd just call it speed training. Your rotational speed increases as an effect of swinging less mass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaJTv8wUepA&t=15s

RoDeO 10-28-2020 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3649911)
I'd just call it speed training. Your rotational speed increases as an effect of swinging less mass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaJTv8wUepA&t=15s

Aye. All I know is that since I jave really focused on it I'm throwing farther more easily.

sidewinder22 10-28-2020 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649906)
Everything I do or say people think it's ridiculous. And yet, Im progressing with my game relatively fast, and, without injury. So either I'm just strangely defying all odds, or, doing something pretty well.

Well you have said some ridiculous things(as well as some insightful), but you tend to not speak very tactfully, or show your work or back up much of what you say with articles or evidence.

I've also said you might be a unicorn and your baseball background certainly works in your favor.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 09:22 PM

Or, it could be that I just work hard at it. I think that if one is willing to study it out then work their butt off success is almost inevitable. Like the other morning when it was 0 degrees out, a bitter north wind, sun hadn't come up yet, I could barely see what I was doing and I'm asking myself "what kind of idiot practices his drives in this bitter cold that freezes the eyebrows?"

SaROCaM 10-28-2020 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649927)
Aye. All I know is that since I jave really focused on it I'm throwing farther more easily.

Under- and over-weight training has been proven to work.

Have seen it work in lifting, running/sprinting.

The use of weighted baseballs has been controversial but it works.

I have also tried it in the past for disc golf and it worked for me. Gained about 50' of distance one summer, threw my longest forehand throws ever.

SaROCaM 10-28-2020 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649981)
Or, it could be that I just work hard at it. I think that if one is willing to study it out then work their butt off success is almost inevitable. Like the other morning when it was 0 degrees out, a bitter north wind, sun hadn't come up yet, I could barely see what I was doing and I'm asking myself "what kind of idiot practices his drives in this bitter cold that freezes the eyebrows?"

Consistent, hard work applied to a suboptimal program more often leads to better results than inconsistent, lazy effort applied to a more optimal program.

But consistent, hard work applied to a more optimal program more often yields better results than either of those.

What's the best program? The one you believe in and stick with.

RoDeO 10-28-2020 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3649984)
Under- and over-weight training has been proven to work.

Have seen it work in lifting, running/sprinting.

The use of weighted baseballs has been controversial but it works.

I have also tried it in the past for disc golf and it worked for me. Gained about 50' of distance one summer, threw my longest forehand throws ever.

Yeah, we use to use under and overweight baseball's from time to time in baseball. We saw some good results.

RowingBoats 10-28-2020 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3649984)
Under- and over-weight training has been proven to work.

Have seen it work in lifting, running/sprinting.

The use of weighted baseballs has been controversial but it works.

I have also tried it in the past for disc golf and it worked for me. Gained about 50' of distance one summer, threw my longest forehand throws ever.

The only studies I found showed over AND under weight baseball training to have no measurable effect. Do you have a source for this?

txmxer 10-29-2020 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3649637)
Velocity at release, backhand, is dependent entirely upon the rotational velocity of the torso around an axis.

One could certainly spin. The 100 yr old dude is basically spinning.

But normal throwers that you show videos of are not spinning about an axis. There are pivot pints and leverage, but itís not a spinning motion as such.

The goal of the throwing motion is to convert momentum to a force and linearly accelerate the disc.

The hip rotation is caused by follow through, not lead.

SaROCaM 10-29-2020 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3650010)
The only studies I found showed over AND under weight baseball training to have no measurable effect. Do you have a source for this?

Here's a start:

Effects of General, Special, and Specific Resistance Training on Throwing Velocity in Baseball: A Brief Review (DeRenne et al, 2001)
Effects of Baseball Weighted Implement Training: A Brief Review (DeRenne et al, 2009)
Increasing Throwing Velocity (DeRenne, 1985)
Effects of Under-and Over-Weighted Implement Training and Pitching Velocity (1994)

RoDeO 10-29-2020 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3650037)
One could certainly spin. The 100 yr old dude is basically spinning.

But normal throwers that you show videos of are not spinning about an axis. There are pivot pints and leverage, but it’s not a spinning motion as such.

The goal of the throwing motion is to convert momentum to a force and linearly accelerate the disc.

The hip rotation is caused by follow through, not lead.

I disagree. The backhand throw is all about rotating the body. The main distance in a backhand throw comes from a quick powerful rotation of the torso. The hip rotation leads the rotation of the torso and shoulders. There are guys out there who can bomb discs with the slowest x step on the planet. They aren't converting momentum into lateral shift to get distance. They are converting the rotational force of the hips, torso and shoulders to propel the disc. Adding more speed in the run-up is only slightly beneficial to distance.

oldmandiscer 10-29-2020 01:08 AM

I think the 360 throw is adding a ton more rotational velocity as well. Guess what, when performed properly it goes further. Also since we turn the shoulders as far back as we can in the backswing that is rotational as well. I would say it's both rational and linear. To what percent will vary by the throw and person.

I guess you could try throwing with no rotation but you won't throw it anywhere (like a putt).

txmxer 10-29-2020 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650045)
I disagree. The backhand throw is all about rotating the body. The main distance in a backhand throw comes from a quick powerful rotation of the torso. The hip rotation leads the rotation of the torso and shoulders. There are guys out there who can bomb discs with the slowest x step on the planet. They aren't converting momentum into lateral shift to get distance. They are converting the rotational force of the hips, torso and shoulders to propel the disc. Adding more speed in the run-up is only slightly beneficial to distance.


You understand neither physics nor kinesiology.

RandyC 10-29-2020 03:01 AM

Maybe you should post a video of your throw and we can compare it to a professional player. If you are against all odds on the right path as you say, your form should look very similiar if not identical ?

txmxer 10-29-2020 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3650057)
Maybe you should post a video of your throw and we can compare it to a professional player. If you are against all odds on the right path as you say, your form should look very similiar if not identical ?

He said he found this after he injured his right arm and started throwing lefty. I have a friend that does something similar.


When I watch him throw off(left) handed, he rounds. Itís not as refined and doesnít result in as much distance, but I can understand how someone limited to a rounding throw might conclude that was THE answer.

Thatís what I see here.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3650053)
You understand neither physics nor kinesiology.

In this GIF, are her hips leading the rotation or as you say turning because of follow through?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/V_-f3R.gif

txmxer 10-29-2020 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650128)
In this GIF, are her hips leading the rotation or as you say turning because of follow through?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/V_-f3R.gif

Now you are getting it. Her hips move as part of the weight shift.

If it were a spin move, there would be no weight shift.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3650134)
Now you are getting it. Her hips move as part of the weight shift.

If it were a spin move, there would be no weight shift.

Have you been following this whole thread? I have been saying all along that her hips rotate as part of the weight shift- that it is dynamic.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3650057)
Maybe you should post a video of your throw and we can compare it to a professional player. If you are against all odds on the right path as you say, your form should look very similiar if not identical ?

I still have a lot to improve upon. This isnt the best representation as it was 19 degrees out this morning and My feet were cold and I was wearing 4 layers of clothes and coats.

Was throwing 300-350 on about 8 shots before I packed it in, was too cold, couldn't get stretched out.

https://youtu.be/mFq1MZqOa3M

RoDeO 10-29-2020 12:13 PM

This was my last throw of 8 this morning. It kept turning till it almost landed. It's a Jade, speed 9 disc. It's my favorite driver right now even though it can get too flippy when Im fully warmed up.This one measured 350 feet.

https://youtu.be/P-NOMVMM4_k

txmxer 10-29-2020 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650183)
Have you been following this whole thread? I have been saying all along that her hips rotate as part of the weight shift- that it is dynamic.

but they don't lead. To the extent possible, the body is moving linearly forward along the disc flight line.

If it was a spin throw, you wouldn't have a weight shift.

txmxer 10-29-2020 01:02 PM

you can even see it in Simon's 360 throw. He sets his lead foot, locks his hips, pushes forward with his rear leg, the disc follows a generally linear path from reach back to release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tTm...l=SimonLizotte

RoDeO 10-29-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3650211)
but they don't lead. To the extent possible, the body is moving linearly forward along the disc flight line.

If it was a spin throw, you wouldn't have a weight shift.

The body is doing two things- it's moving in a linear position forward and it's also rotating around an axis.

seedlings 10-29-2020 01:07 PM

Here is a great example of the twitch of the hips starting 1:05



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